SANTO DOMINGO.- National Pilots Association president Pedro Domínguez, today discarded that the approval of legislation to authorize the downing of airplanes used in drug-trafficking would affect commercial flights, as the United States embassy alleges.
He said drug-trafficking planes, given their illegal activity, fly at an altitude of between 300 and 500 feet, whereas commercial craft never fly below 2,000.
A commercial airplane flies at 500 feet if it has problems and is forced to land, but only after several signals and warning from the authorities and prior to its identification, he said.
"There is no danger that an airplane is mistake downed, with the approval of that initiative by the friends Pelegrín Castillo and Jose Ricardo Taveras," he said, in reference to the two deputies behind the bill.
He said the Pilots Association back the bill because it sees the need to face confront drug trafficking. "Every day we see how small planes in drug trafficking flying at a low altitude drop hundreds of kilos of cocaine in different zones of the country. That situation needs to stop."
Senator Francisco Domínguez (PLD-Santiago), who said the bill is positive because it creates measures to fight drug trafficking, cautioned that it must be widely debated, listening to all sectors, so the senators get a concrete opinion on the topic. He said the Senate National Security Commission studies the initiative.
From: Dominican Republic
The legislature had better set aside sevral million dollars to pay off the families of the eventual innocents which are killed by a "macho" Dominican military Pilot who doesn't take the time to direct any unidentified aircraft to land at the nearest suitable airport for investigation.
TB
Written by: tejada, 17 Jan 2008 5:11 PM
From: United States
I agree with you, TexasBill... I think the little Dominican Republic is too anxious to try out its new war planes, and since they never see any action in the sky, they are using this as an excuse to do it. I mean, come on, what's with wanting to down a plane so badly that they wouldn't be willing to escort them to the nearest airport?
Written by: RANCIER, 17 Jan 2008 5:36 PM
From: United States, N.J.
You are so correct B.H.A. I have a better solution yet to all these problems and future ones.
Cancell all the air plane purchase from Brazil and invest those US$80 millions on Education,
Energy,Roads,Health. After all the planes intent was such, this way DR pilots have nothing to fly.
Let the USCG patrol the perimeter of Hispaniola as well as its air space to stop those traffickiers
whose destination is USA. Also our US military are more experience and can do a better job at no cost to DR.
People refer to international waters over DR which i don't agree with such statements.Once you are over any national territory,you are an invader, unless propper ID are presented as would be the case of USCG. To my understanding of international water it is beyond each country's 3 or 200 coastal miles as it is for some countries as the boudary. Why does DR needs 6 infantry brigades as well as an air force that has no planes who are they fighting?
Be like Costa Rica get rid of the leaches.
From: Dominican Republic
Even though the majority of teh intercepted are destined for the USA, as the largest world consumer of illicit drugs, I would add that there is a growing "user population" of drugs in the DR.
Whether or not this group originated in the US or elsewhere is moot. They're here and must be dealt with by society and the Law Enforcement agencies assigned to such tasks.
Under the solution offered supported by the Dominican Legislators, these people should be SHOT ON SIGHT and forgtten. That is the same philosophy supported by the Legislators, isn't it?
Then there are those members of the DCND, the Customs, the Military andthePolice who participate in drug dealing activities. They should also be treated in the same manner.
See where such an attitude leads???
Drug use is a WorldWide problem andthere are many areaas of origination. We just happen to be in one of the major pathways for such traffic.
Apologies to the honest DCND, etc. members who do their job correctly.
TB
Written by: RANCIER, 17 Jan 2008 6:59 PM
From: United States, N.J.
To TexasBill:
Mr B.H.A I see your point and again you are right .I did not see the entire picture.
All I could see is the waist on armaments, if you are not going to use it and are not allow to use it,
when that money could be invested on something else more productive such as education so highly needed,electric sector,water purification,roads, school infrastructure.
You happen to live in Santiago the second largest city in the country and the most productive,as far
as agro, but take a look at those less fortunates provinces, where the gvt does not give a dam, but
the central gvt (N.D.) Santo Domingo & its dam politics and how much hey are going to steal so i can out do them when my turn comes.
You do agree with me as far as turning over the sky and the perimeter of the island to the USCG to
police, since DR serves as a bridge to the USA for illicit drugs ?
It would be less expensive to DR if they also gave away its corrupt military and use it where needed such as IRAQ.
Written by: DannyVC, 18 Jan 2008 3:15 AM
From: United States, New Jersey
Shoot em' down, Zero tolerance. Do not let those drug trafficking thugs think they can use our homeland as their own personal business place; let them know they do it at the risk of their lives. And it's time the DR got some fighter jets too if it's ever going to regain it's spot as the military power in the Caribbean. Unfortunately they didn't have the USSR to supply them for 40 years.
From: United States
actually, Texas Bill, i dont think that the lawsuit prospects are a part of the equation. you know that in the dr it is never anyone´s fault, so , if a pilot was to shoot down a legitimate flight in error, he could always say it was the other guy´s fault for being in the air. as to the interesting observation by DannyVC; when was the dr the military power in the caribbean? secondly, why do we need a military power in the caribbean? to protect us from grand cayman and bermuda? and speaking of military power; do you think that by downing a one engined cessna we will overtake cuba as a military force?
From: United States
Rancier, during the disgrace of the Iraq war the US has cut it's Caribbean Anti-Drug financing in half to redirect money to the war. It's very highly probable that the drug cartels have used the under fiancing to increase their flights into RD. The real sad part is that the drugs are still making their way into the US. Tell me how? With all the technology that is available that tons of drugs are still making their way into the US and past customs. If it becomes harder to reach the US or even Europe then the drugs have to sit months and months and it all becomes more complicated for them. Recently there was talk of turning over a US port to a Saudi Arabian company who would handle the customs duty with private contractors. Think about that.
However, the RD government must do whatever it must to control the drugs from ruining the country. Dam if you do, Dam if you don't.
From: United States
I say, by better radar, track them as they enter RD airspace over the Caribbean and if they don't respond to three warnings, and if conclusive shoot'em down before they reach inland.
From: United States
actually, Richardalberto, that was not a company from Saudi Arabia, but Dubai Port World, from Dubai. that was shot down by congress. they were going to control the port functions, but the security issue was too bothersome. but i still have reservations about shooting down aircraft; there have been downings caused by failure in communications in the past.
From: Dominican Republic
My question is this: When are the populations of all the "Third World Nationa" going to recofnize that the USA has and is spent/spending BILLIONS of dollars worldwide in support of the economeis of those nations?
Look at where it has gotten the US for being a "benevolent nation", regardless of accusations of "imperialistic acusations" by those who would try directing the public thinkinggainst the USA?
We see a lot of rhetoric about the "imperialistic" USA from the extreme left, but isn't it funny that NO laftist governments have offered to support theheretofore corrupt governments of those countries which whine the loudist andinsist on "gimme, gimme, gimme" and don't look at what we spend themoney on or how we steal those funds for our individual purposes.
Now we see those same elements pointing the finger to the USA for not surrounding Hispaniola with US military forces to combat the druggies.
From: Dominican Republic
In the fnal analysis, it is up to each country to protect it's own borders andto police it's own interior against those criminal elements which threaten it's security. All other coultries can do is TRY to mitigate the influx of illegals and criminals which, by the way, doesn't fall within their area of responsibility to begin with.
If the Law Enforcement community had even 1/4th of the dedication to duty that exists in the USA, you ALL would see a tremendous difference in the number of murders, the corruption within the forces and the overall security of thecountry that you now ?enjoy?.
Start pointing the fingers at the REAL PROBLEM since it surely isn't the USA.
TB
From: United States
dreadlocks I stand corrected.
TB. I understand your point being that you're from Texas and all. But really, the USA government does support foreign economies. It also supports the drug cartels internationally by refusing to find a solution to the drug epidemic which dictates supply and demand globally. Now, if the citizens of the USA, upper. middle and lower classes find it becoming of them to support the Taliban, by cinsuming dope, the Colombian cartels but sniffing coke and the Mexican cartels by smoking pot shouldn't the USA also assist other nations in combating the drug flow too?
Written by: DannyVC, 18 Jan 2008 2:46 PM
From: United States, New Jersey
I wouldn't trust the US government in a foreign country anymore than a fox in a chicken coop. Dominicans need to remember 1965 and realize that international cooperation should under no circumstances come before national sovereignty. Just look at whats going on in places like Pakistan where the current administration thinks it can just go in and bomb any targets it wants without even informing the Pakistani government before hand. If something like that happened in DR and some innocent people were killed...well lets just say you can see were some people's ideologies come from. As far as no leftist government ever helping? Cuba has more doctors in Latin America than the US has ever had and Venezuela is helping with oil. The only difference is they help, they don't see a need to control.
From: Dominican Republic
richardalberto, DannyVC, Et Al.
Part of what you alledge is very true. But I would point out that the US IS assisting OTHER NATIONS in combattilg thedrug cartels,whether they be in Afganastan, Columbia or Mexico. It isindeed sad that the major purchases of these frugs are centered in theUSA. that fact, however, soes not mitigate the responsibility ofthe other nations to vigerously combat such a threat to world society. What do you think these countries would do about the problem, shouldtheUS NOT prod tham continuously to assist in interdicting the shipments that ALSO affect their communities and society?
As to any "bombing" within the borders of Pakistan, that is a fact that has not yet occurred, DannyVC, so the point is moot and without substance, so get your facts straight and don't spread false rumors in support of your own agenda of US denegration. Such gets old after awhile.
TB
From: Dominican Republic
As to the "invasion" by US Military forces in 1965, this was at the behest of the then sitting US Ambassador who was convinced that there was a serious threat to residing US Citizens andto the spread of a communistic system into the country
BTW, this also was the reason for the "invasion" of Grenada later in the century after the Cuban Militaray forces were entrenched on that island.
For my part, I just wish the USA would leave the awarding of funds in support of other countries to the appropriate UN Agencies. if that were to happen, you would see many of thecurrent recipients of UA largess screaming their blody heads off for a renewal of those largesses pronto.
the benevolence of the USA, in support of foreign countries, since the end of WWII to the present day is not to be ignored because of economic philosophies and political differences.
You and your ilk are forever ignoring these historical facts in pursuit of your own agendas.
TB
From: United States
Good point TB.
I remember that during the Iran-Contra scandal father Bush was investigated for working with Noriega from Panama to import tons of cocaine into the US for use in purchasing the weapons from Iran for use in Nicaragua. I guess that jaded me alittle. The US is still the best and safest. But our selfishness, gas consuming huge SUVs is crazy. I've seen with my own eyes a cafeteria employee as part of his daily duties, throw into that garbage, pounds and pounds of fresh salad, fruits and bread. That was crazy too. Our consuption rate is out of control both regular consumer goods and illegal substances.
From: Dominican Republic
BTW, how do you justify the inhumane actions of the Soviet Union ( the economic and political philosophies which you obviously support) during that same time period.
That country physically subjugated literally millions of citizens of other countries adjacent to the USSR from the end of WWII until it's internal collapse in the 80's. the citizens of both the USSR andthose adjacent countries lived in fear of midnight raids on their premises for imagined "crimes against the people", when, in fact, such crimes were perpetrated from fear of opposition. Over 20 Million people died in the Gulags simply because they differed philosophically from the ruling Communist Party. Their crime was that they "marched to a different drummer". Remember that, they too, invaded Afganistan in support of the incumbent Communist government. Tell me the differences between they and the USA exercising that same prerrogative???
Different drummers beat a different rhythm to follow. by Texas Bill
TB
Written by: lovingit, 18 Jan 2008 5:13 PM
From: United States, Delaware
For those of you who are interested:
http://www.fad.mil.do/And some history which actually proves that the DR was a tone point at least the main Aereal Force power in the caribbean during the Trujillo Era, as you will see from that link, the US has never been happy about the DR having aereal firepower, but back then, DR did what it wanted to do anyways because there was virtually no dependency on the US (since Trujillo had paid the external debt):
http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/a..../dominican_rep/DomRep-af-home.htmAnd to everyone, c'mon, you don't sinerely think that DR pilots are going to simply point and shoot down planes do you? I am sure these are going to be trained individuals, who will be given very specific instructions and procedures to shoot down as the last resort. But the DR does not, and should not depend on foreign powers to protect their air space, it is THEIR air space and they should enforce RESPECT over it.
From: Dominican Republic
lovingit;
How can you make theassertion that the US was unhappy about the strength of the FAD when they sold 99% of the equipment to ALL of the Dominican Armed Forces? Then on top of that, they trained all of the senior officers of that force at the Air War College and other military schools run by the US Armed Forces.
I might add that it has NEVER been the policy of mitigating in any form the military education of Dominican Forces from what ever branch they may have represented. Serious research would categorically refute your allegations to that point.
TB
From: United States, New Jersey
TB,
you make some good points, but as a direct question to you.. in reference to the above comment. The US also provided the Taliban & Usama bin Ladin with firearms and knowledge on how to use it.. they also provided the same for Fidel Castro when he was still in good terms with the CIA.. . how do you think Americans feel now about the consiquences ??
Written by: TFISKE, 19 Jan 2008 2:53 PM
From: Canada
If want drugs to slow dont complain how they do it!
If they shoot a few down I am sure the message will be send.
Funny you negative people.. you no who you are.. blame the goverment no matter what they do
I say shoot a few down and lets see who wants to fly drugs in next week!
From: Dominican Republic
The US support of the Taliban was during the time when they were fighting a common threat, ie., the USSR which had invaded Afganastan in support of their Communist government. I really don't reacall any time when the US supported Osama bin-Laden unless it was during that time and for the same reasons. "The enemy ofmy enemy id my friend" is something Mid-Easterners embrace. The US doese not necessarily do so. However, I must say that the CIA has done many covert operations which I don't support either.
What were discussing here is the Dominican Republic and not the Mid-East.
But, just for your edification, Castro DID bamboozle the Cia anad the US in order to get weaposn for his revolution against the then "de jur" government of Cuba andas a result ofhis revolution became the "de facto" government. The Cubans merely traded one dictator for another which wasn't anything to brag about.
How do Americans feel about those events??? Personally, I'm mad as hell at the CIA.
TB
Written by: lovingit, 19 Jan 2008 5:27 PM
From: United States, Delaware
Written by: TFISKE, 19 Jan 2008 5:39 PM
From: Canada
What the hell texas bill
stay on topic Planes and DR and drugs not Taliban and russia and Bin Laden
easy on the drugs yourself man focus!
From: United States, New Jersey
TB..
Thanks for the response.. I understand that the CIA backed the Afghan's in an effort to help them with the USSR invasion at the time.. I did't mean to go off topic, just wanted to hear an opinion from someone as outspoken as yourself on the topic.
I like that the government is at least showing strong aggresion against the parasites that control the drug trade. However, I simply believe where not quite ready to go full blown rambo on them.. tI suggest they bring in foriegn experts as consultants.
From: Dominican Republic
DrCiSkoFC;
The following comment is "Off Toppic", but must be said for the sake of fairness and between fact and manufactured fiction (the twisting of events to fit personal agendas).
To begin with, I cannot support the premise being put forth by certain elements posting on these pages, that it was/is the intention of the USA to do other than protect it's interests in any geographical area. That interest being the absolute defense of it's "way of life" at all costs. Every govenment has that goal in mind in ALL it'sdealings with friend and foe alike.
The International Political arena has, and always will be, an almagamation of these efforts by individual nations. That is a foregone conclusion and no-one can deny that fact. The world is aware of the ideological conflict between the now defunct Soviet Union and the Western World. The efforts of both camps of political and economic philosophy are well documented by the world communications media, so no further comment there.
From: Dominican Republic
cont'd from above;
In the final analysis, both camps committed actions which were contrary to their goals of "winning the hearts and minds" of other individual nations. That is also a fact which, at times has been blown out of proportion to the actual event reported. All such does is point out publically, that ill thought out remedies to the problem were faulty and needed to be modified.
In the long run, World Opinion has prevailed and nations have changed their "modus operendi" to fit within that world opinion. The goal of a "balance of power" within the international community is ever present. Hence, the efforts of using a "jihad" to effect those goals is in conflict with other elements in the political and economic scenario world wide.
The sectarian violence in the Mid-East has been cooking for centuries and will continue to cook for possibly centuries more, until people learn to live together for the common good.
From: Dominican Republic
Cont'd from above;
I realize that in many cases I am "preaching to the choir", but feel in my heart that certain things need to be said.
Back to the DR.
I realize that there is still a great deal of ill-feeling by certain Dominican elements, against the US because of past "invasions" by US forces. It must be said, however, that those "invasions" were not designed to "conquer and occupy" this nation as a sattelite, but to stabilize and influence it's future. I believe those goals were accomplished, whatever the outcome was. In the 1900's the "Monroe Doctrine" was still being followed and that was the driving force of the occupation which took place at that time. historically, that occupation served to coalesce the conflicting political elements within the country. That it served to facillitate Trujillo's rise to power is recognized, but the country enjoyed a very long period of stability as a result. This event upset the internal "balance of power".
From: Dominican Republic
cont'd from above;
Another potential threat in the Caribbean presented itsel as a result. The introduction of elements from the US stated enemy of Cuba entered the political and economic scenario in an attempt to fill the power void of the country. Opposing elements were brought tinto play which the then sitting Ambassador viewed as a threat to American residents andthe stability of the territory.
Us Forces were called in in an attempt tostabilize the situation of conflict which arose.
While many of you won't agree, this action did stabilize the country and began the introduction of the political and economic situation which we still have.
Good or Bad?? That depends on your individual interpretation of DR History.
Historically, the DR has had many "Ups andDowns", both economically and politically, for better or for worse. Through it all this nation has adjusted to the changing situations andhas emerged for the better.
That, in and of itself is a tribute to the nations people.
From: Dominican Republic
Cont'd from above;
What we have today is what we have always had. Control of both the government and the economy by a select few who rule behind the scenes. These have proven to be a stabilizing influence on the political and economic elements at work in this society. The y are the REAL POWER in this country and they have, for the most part, kept it from sinking into chaos and anarchy.
You may not agree with me as to my assessment, but the facts and History speak louder than my feeble words ever can.
In the final analysis (I really like to use tha phrase), this is theelement which must change the internal dynamics that are at work and demand of the government those actions which will elevate this country from it's feudalism and into the 21st century so it can take it's rightful place in the community of nations.
Nuff said.
TB
Written by: TFISKE, 20 Jan 2008 12:44 PM
From: Canada
Consultants so they can take a piece of the action!
I dont understand whats so hard here if thee refuse to respond to controllers or pilots then shoot them down.
A cessna at night flying over Maaco is not sight seeing
the plane is flying low with drugs
By the time they get the consultants report the could have fixed half the problem!
I wish there was a nicer way to arrest drug carriers but they no its a risk!
a friend of mines daughter just got arrested in Australia after flying there with 8 kilos
Very Sad... she is 24 and in with a bad crowd!
now she going to jail for 5-6 years at least
I hope she learns this was just a stupid stupid thing but, people will always risk and do crazy things to make some fast money.
I believe some people like the rush
Written by: TFISKE, 20 Jan 2008 12:50 PM
From: Canada
TEXAS BILL,
THE LOCALS I HAVE SPOKE TO ARE UNDERSTANDING AND THANKFUL TO THE USA!
THESE PEOPLE WERE ALIVE, WORKING AND LIVING WHEN THE USA LANDED.
THEY WERE HAPPY THEY CAME TO HELP.
THEY WISH IT NEVER HAD TO HAPPEN
THE COUNTRY HAS IMPROVED
SORRY JOSEAN!
Written by: DannyVC, 20 Jan 2008 7:37 PM
From: United States, New Jersey
Who where those people you spoke to TFISKE? They certainly weren't Dominican. And, if they where, when then obviously they where upper class.
From: Dominican Republic
DannyVC;
Certainly you don't take the attitude that EVERY DOMINICAN thinks as you do. You must remember that litle fact as you make the assertions that they do.
One of the reaasons that there are so many political parties in the DR is that many people have different ideas of what "Politics" is all about and view the world through a different set of lenses. The many different colors of senses sends itself to many different aenues of thought--or, haven't you thought about that element?
Remember, the roots of Democracy lies in therespect for the other fellows opinion and thought patterns, not just yours.
I find I must take my own aadvise from time to time when the rhetoric gets hot andheavy, then sit back and reflect on what OTHER people's opinions may be. Even then I have to keep myself from making up false statistics in support of my premise.
DO YOU??? Think about it, pardner.
TB
From: United States
I have to side with TFISKE. (partially) Although it is true that DR does not need an entire fleet it is money well spent simply because it sends a clear message to the drug cartels.
DrCiSkoFC, The idea of bringing consultants is tortured mindless reasoning...these parasites are entering DR's air space illegally and your suggesting is that we get consultants ? outrageous !!
On the other hand, what i do see happening in the future (given our history of corruption) is the cartel could simply payoff high-ranking military officials ...
now with respect to Texasboy's comment :
> That it served to facillitate Trujillo's rise to power is recognized,
> but the country enjoyed a very long period of stability as a result...
The enjoyment was for Trujillo and his thugs, the country suffered - people's civil rights
were violated (how fitting - MLKjr day) and not to mention the genocide and atrocities committed..
as MLKjr once said --
" it seems that I can hear God saying to Ameri
From: United States
as MLKjr once said --
" it seems that I can hear God saying to America You are too arrogant! "
RON PAUL 2008 - TRANSITION TO SMALL LEAN GOVERNMENT , NO RESERVE BANK!
From: Dominican Republic
rodrigito;
While I agree that Trujillo was an unmitigated bastard and a monster of a dictator, he DID stabilize the country, even if it was through fear. That's NOT to his credit, however.
The point I was TRYING to make was this--- During that time there was NO FOREIGN DEBT, Equal monetary exchange, low unemployment (even though Trujillo owned most of thebusinesses bought with money he stole from government coffers), the country WAS stable.
We are now struggling with high unemployment, a HUGE National Debt (caused by both Hipolito and Fernandez Administrations and Legislators franic to get their share), practically NO budget for Education, Health and TRUE Infrastructure (except in the Capital Zone) funding.
Unequivically, I am NOT giving support for the Trujillo dictatorship. I am well aware of that man's propencities and his methods and do not advocate them by any stretch of the imagination.
From: Dominican Republic
All I did was cite historical facts which are on record. That doesn't mean that I agree with how those facts were created. If you thought that I was lauding Trujillo, or any of his ilk, then I.m sorry you took it that way. Historical facts are just that and nothing we can say will change that.
I would appreciate it if you would re-read my post with that in mind and not get all worked up over your imagining my support of Trujillo.
Just remember that Hitler rose to power when the Weimer Republic failed after WWI in
Germany. The same thing happened in the DR after the brief revolution of 1965 between the political factions then at odds.
Many people blame theUS for theturmoil that followed, but one must remember that there was a lot of internal conflict at the time and consider what could have resulted otherwise. That was outlined above in previous post and please don't acuse me ever again of supporting a Dictatorship of any kind. Like you, I hate them with a passion.
TB
From: United States
Infrastructure ...? please dude! at what cost... not my definition of opportunity cost... and although the country was stable Education, Health were still major issues back then..
I guess "STABLE" is open to interpretation... yours, is certainly not my definition of stability...
Just like J hoover and the FBI harassed and relentless persecuted suffered by MLKjr , but at least the US was stable... right ? somewhat parallel to el "El Jefe" where THE PEOPLE are pushing for change.. such was MLK and followers, as well as Jewish and other religions at that time, were pushing for change in civil rights... but were oppressed over and over by the government (affraid of communism) ....
althoug, in my view, what J Hoover and the FBI did to MLKjr is much worse because they were masquerading as leaders of the free world blah blah blah and behind the curtains same old agenda, that of a dictator, in a nutshell.... As US HISTORY VERY WELL SHOWS...
From: United States
ITS VERY SCARY WHEN A FEW IN WASH DECIDE TO PUSH THE BUTTON THOUSAND OF PEOPLE DEAD AND THE PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY GO ABOUT BUSINESS AS USUAL .. AN EVENT OF THIS MAGNITUDE CALLS FOR PEOPLE TO GATHER TOGETHER AND DEMAND ANSWERS!!! TAKE TO THE STREETS!! CONGREGATE !! NOT TO MENTION CONGRESS IS ALSO CORRUPT!! THIS COUNTRY IS AS CORRUPT AS THEY COME BROTHA!! TRUE LEADERS SUCH AS JFK, MLK, etc.. DONT COME OFTEN.. MURDERED BY THEIR WON ... SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY WERE TO BRING ABOUT CHANGE, CHANGE THAT THE PEOPLE WANTED, BUT A SELECTED FEW, ELITES, DID NOT!
THIS COUNTRY NEEDS CHANGE! BY THAT I MEAN -- NOT HILLARY OR ROMNEY OR OBAMA - THEY REPRESENT SAME OLD GOVERNEMNT.. AMERCA FACES SERIOUS OBSTACLES AHEAD -- SPEC ECONOMICaALLY -- LUCKLY FOR DR AND OTHER NATIONS THEY ARE NOT SO DEPENDANT ON US ECONOMY (but still may be impacted) WHEN 51 OF THE TOP 100 economies in the world ARE CORPORATIONS AND NOW CHINA HAVING SERIOUS STAKES ON THESE CORPORATIONS YOU HAVE A PRBLM...
From: United States
HOW CAN YOU SAY DR WAS BETTER OF UNDER TRUJILLO !! AND USE LAME ECONOMIC REASONS TO JUSTIFY IT!! ???
QUALITY OF LIFE
QUALITY OF LIFE
QUALITY OF LIFE
QUALITY OF LIFE !!
From: United States
TALK ABOUT STEALING FROM PUBLIC COFFERS!!!! JA, JA, JA..... YA KNOW VERY WELL USA HAS MASTERED THIS ART.... PLENTY OF HISTORY TO GO AROUND... POLITICIANS NOTHING BUT BUNCH OF WHORES IN BED WITH CORPS... CORPS THAT DONT CARE ABOUT SOCIETY OR THE ENVIRONMENT;;; LIKE SHELL HAS DONE IN AFRICA .... ALL IN THE NAME OF PROFIT .. UFFF AND DONT GET ME STARTED ON THE ELECTIONS IN AMERICA, THEY'VE BECOME A JOKE!!! A NATION WHERE YOU NEED TO BE A BILLIONAIRE TO RUN FOR OFFICE!!!
From: Dominican Republic
Well, I guess I opened Pandora's Box, didn't I???
Rodrigito, let's start again from the begining, huh?
To begin with, I respect your anger over what you perceive as being a gross disrespect for human activity and wellbeing on the part of politicians and large corporations.
There are many times that I feel the same way about the events unfolding before my eyes.
I don't trust politicians any further than I can throw them and I'm sure you feel the same way.
I have been taught to deal in facts, not in or with emotions. When seeking those facts, one must cast aside those personal emotions which cloud andfrustrate the logic being applied, whether it be through inductive or deductive analysis of events.
The results of both economic, political and social actions have far reaching consequences. Those consequencies of past actions are still with us today and affect our everyday lives. That is a given.
From: Dominican Republic
Cont'd from above;
I would ask you and others (and sometimes, myself included) just what is the medium by which we seek to accomplish our goals. That question is, andalways will be, MONEY. Or, in other words, a MEDIUM OF EXCHANGE, for without it the entire world would come to a screeching halt.
Politicians know this fact intrincinctly. They also realize that the accumulation of the "medium of exchange" beyond their, or their countries, basic needs will have theresult of a conversion of the excess into power which can be converted into an intimidating ingredient which will produce more power.
Populations just happen to be part of that "power equation" and are used to the advantages of the political systems.
That same ingredient transfers into the economy and the acompaning societies.
If you think, or believe otherwise, you are a very naive individual and will consequently become a drone in anysociety.
From: Dominican Republic
Cont'd from above;
While we two may have opposing economic, social and political leanings, we both are following our selected paths toward accomplishing the goals of those leanings.
I grew up in the South (of the USA) andit wasn't until I became an adult that the events of my past came into focus. Guess I'm just a bit slow sometimes. But as I looked back into my brief history, I realized that many of the "truths" I had held were not only false, but were couched in bigotry and inhumanity to minorities. This realization had a lasting effect on me. I realized that in fairness to myself and to those "others" in society, I had to NOT continue taking the other persons word a a gospel; that I had to analyse each and every situation confronting me in the light of historical fact and with humanity. Unfortunately, I've not always been able to do that, though I have sincerely tried to be fair in all dealings with others.
From: Dominican Republic
Cont'd from above;
While you may think that I am being condescending, I don't really mean to be, nor have my comments interpreted in that manner. If you are of that opinion, then please forgive my usage of words here.
We must always realize that politicians have an entirely different thought pattern than those of us who don't seek public office. They are driven by an inherent ego and self perpetuating efforts to accomplish thegoals of the philosophy they embrace. They expound on those elements of emotionalism which incites support from those who are convinced by their rhetoric.
Marx was one of those,as was Marx, Lenin, Engel and Stalin. In opposition were those followers of Adam Smith and other supporters of the Capitalistic systems. Then you have that element ofg religious philosophies intering into the equation.
In the world today, we have the various modifictions of these systems at play and through it all, we have the populations which are at the mercy of them all.
From: Dominican Republic
Cont'd from above;
So, what do we do as individuals?
We can accept that which is (the status quo), or we can speak against that which we consider to be unequal, irreverent and debilitating to the progress of man toward that dream of a Utopia.
We both seek the latter. We just have different ways of communicationg those goals.
Politicians are the medium through which we gain those goals. They, like all of us, have an agenda for success. We just have to deal with that element, because in today's societies, they have the current power position. We need to convince THEM, not ourselves, that their current methods and procedures are not what we want. And that, my friend, is how Democracy works.
It is not always successfully promulgated, but eventually it works to the advantage of the people, providing the people realize just how much power they have over the events of both the present and the future.
The main element of a Democracy lies in an INFORMED society acting for themselves.
Written by: RANCIER, 28 Jan 2008 3:13 PM
From: United States, N.J.
TexasBill:
When you refer to politicians,you are most likely comparing the ones in USA to those in DR.
There is no comparison: those in DR are schooled in stealing and answer to no one ,not even to their own party. They are placed by the president and steal as much as they can while they can.
Over here in the USA they answer to their constituent. There is a flaw in the USA presidential
election thought, where you can become presint even thoght you don't obtain the majority of the
votes as long as electoral college wins you are in, such was the case of Jorge Bush in Florida.
Electoral college is obsolite since it was original implemented when the USA citizens were mostly illiterates and some one somewhere had to make the decision for them,and came up with that idea.My opinion is they should do away with it as well as billions spent by special interest to influece the congress (bribery) lobeing .A good example is the pharmaceutical industry went up by 400% in the last 10 yrs.
From: United States
[1/3]
>It is not always successfully promulgated, but eventually it works
>to the advantage of the people, providing the people realize just
>how much power they have over the events of both the present and the future.
so much for democracy and people having the power to elect...
As RACIER mentions above, "such was the case of Jorge Bush in Florida"
how much influence do you think "WE, THE PEOPLE" had in that election ?
nada, zero, null -- the whole thing was fixed !!
If we (in the US) continue in this path of arrogance and ignorance on issues such as
global warming (largely in part by big corps with scary political reach) and many other issues,
Democracy will be nothing but a mere figment of our imagination, because THEY (the corps)
will then be deciding for the people who the next pres should be, because as you (TB) said " without $ the entire world would come to a screeching halt " but just remember that without a planet all the $ in the world is worthles
From: United States
[2/3]
Democracy, as we have known it, is dead.
It will take drastic measures to bring about change, we need a presidential candidates that is not so influenced by special interest groups.. perhaps by way of a 3rd political party ..
Can't wait for the release of Colin Powell's book to read how the people we cheated this time around..
From: United States
[3/3]
On a diff note---
The news is out - Kennedys back Obama for president. Talk about perfect timing, one day before Super-Tuesday, and what about Sen. Kennedy's speech .. wow! the man spoke from his heart for over 30 minutes, and what a speech it was.
Meanwhile, the class-less Clintons seem to backing off of Obama, 'bout time they showed come class. These people will do just about anything to have their way, which is why I'm not voting for Hillary -she's not in this race for the people or the country for that matter, but rather for their personal gains. In my opinion Hillary represents more of the same old special-interest tired politics.
I personally dont like any of the candidates running on either side of the aisle, guess we are left with choosing the lesser evil ... good luck tomorrow ..
From: Dominican Republic
Rodrigito:
You're ONE WEEK ahead of yourself.
Super Tuesday isn't until February 5th (ie., NEXT TUESDAY!!)
However what you say is mostly true about the Clintons. Bill, while possessing a great deal of "charisma" is, at heart, devout socialist who was kept in check only by the moguls of both major political parties during his tenure as President. AIn addition to that, his "lawyer" persona was very evident during the Grand Jury hearings over the scandal he created with what's her name, his "aide" in illicit sexual activities during office.
Only the cowardice of the collective Congress prevented him from being impeached. And it might still be that Bush will be impeached if sufficient evidence is presented over many of his actions and those of his subordinates, over which he had administrative control, who issued orders in his name. In that , he isno better than the current incumbent in the DR.
It is entirely possible that the change emerging will benefit the US. Who knows.
TB
From: United States
[1/2]
dude the atty who represented Bill CLinton during his trial is actually backing Obama for president, This is a person who know Bill Clinton for many years!!! it goes to show the "pull" Obama has.. he is the only candidate , on both sides, who is for the people..some compare him to RFK !! CAROLINE, TED, endorse him!! come'on -- people wake up!! the is the clear choice ... on top of all the big endorsements Obama has more legislative experience than Hillary and Edwars combined (8 yrs) AND is older than Bill clinton when he took office AND IN ADDITION TO THAT ** HAS ** MORE FOREIGN POLICY EXPERIENCE THAN BILL CLINT WHEN HE TOOK OFFICE.... OBAMA actually voted for the COPS program (research COPS program by the FED in the 90s) when you have sens like Kenndy, Kerry, sen from N. Dakota & S. Dakota endorsing B.OBAMA that says somehting.. its gonna be interesting... I too agree w/ what you have said..
From: United States
[2/2]
re: impeaching bush -- have you heard of the FBI undercover agent who revealed that sadam admitted to him personally to not having WMDs... and that he (sadam) was more affraid of IRAN than US invation.. but yet there is (and will never be) any accountability .. these people in this presidency will never be held accountable.. they had congress .. what else you could ask for.. to this date and there is a year left.. republicans (or dems) have yet to call a hearing or witnesses on this issues... and trust me there are plenty...
and regarding your response to my comment about CEOs and corrupt politicians 0--- you very well know there are a plethora of republicans being investigated on all sort of charges... may of them in congress , still in congress, and still voting on issues.. its unbelieabeble ... how abou the former congressman that was indicted over links to islamic charity..
From: Dominican Republic
rodrigito;
Hey, back off. I agree that the DR is not alone when it comes to corrupt politicians andgovernent officials. The US has it's quota of those, maybe more. Other countries fall into thesame cartegory, so let's not focus on one alone.
What I was referring to was the recent movement within theranks of Congress implying impeaching Bush when and if they could uncover the necessaray evidense and garner support in Congress for such a move. Nothing more and nothing less.
As to isolating Republicans vis-a-vis Democrats on the take, I think you are either purposefully ignoring those Democrats who have been under indictment and found guilty or else you are not as well informed as you pretend to be.
I am not singling out either party for such. Let the trees fall where they may. Rep or Dem, it makes no difference.
TB
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TB
Cancell all the air plane purchase from Brazil and invest those US$80 millions on Education,
Energy,Roads,Health. After all the planes intent was such, this way DR pilots have nothing to fly.
Let the USCG patrol the perimeter of Hispaniola as well as its air space to stop those traffickiers
whose destination is USA. Also our US military are more experience and can do a better job at no cost to DR.
People refer to international waters over DR which i don't agree with such statements.Once you are over any national territory,you are an invader, unless propper ID are presented as would be the case of USCG. To my understanding of international water it is beyond each country's 3 or 200 coastal miles as it is for some countries as the boudary. Why does DR needs 6 infantry brigades as well as an air force that has no planes who are they fighting?
Be like Costa Rica get rid of the leaches.
Whether or not this group originated in the US or elsewhere is moot. They're here and must be dealt with by society and the Law Enforcement agencies assigned to such tasks.
Under the solution offered supported by the Dominican Legislators, these people should be SHOT ON SIGHT and forgtten. That is the same philosophy supported by the Legislators, isn't it?
Then there are those members of the DCND, the Customs, the Military andthePolice who participate in drug dealing activities. They should also be treated in the same manner.
See where such an attitude leads???
Drug use is a WorldWide problem andthere are many areaas of origination. We just happen to be in one of the major pathways for such traffic.
Apologies to the honest DCND, etc. members who do their job correctly.
TB
Mr B.H.A I see your point and again you are right .I did not see the entire picture.
All I could see is the waist on armaments, if you are not going to use it and are not allow to use it,
when that money could be invested on something else more productive such as education so highly needed,electric sector,water purification,roads, school infrastructure.
You happen to live in Santiago the second largest city in the country and the most productive,as far
as agro, but take a look at those less fortunates provinces, where the gvt does not give a dam, but
the central gvt (N.D.) Santo Domingo & its dam politics and how much hey are going to steal so i can out do them when my turn comes.
You do agree with me as far as turning over the sky and the perimeter of the island to the USCG to
police, since DR serves as a bridge to the USA for illicit drugs ?
It would be less expensive to DR if they also gave away its corrupt military and use it where needed such as IRAQ.
However, the RD government must do whatever it must to control the drugs from ruining the country. Dam if you do, Dam if you don't.
Look at where it has gotten the US for being a "benevolent nation", regardless of accusations of "imperialistic acusations" by those who would try directing the public thinkinggainst the USA?
We see a lot of rhetoric about the "imperialistic" USA from the extreme left, but isn't it funny that NO laftist governments have offered to support theheretofore corrupt governments of those countries which whine the loudist andinsist on "gimme, gimme, gimme" and don't look at what we spend themoney on or how we steal those funds for our individual purposes.
Now we see those same elements pointing the finger to the USA for not surrounding Hispaniola with US military forces to combat the druggies.
If the Law Enforcement community had even 1/4th of the dedication to duty that exists in the USA, you ALL would see a tremendous difference in the number of murders, the corruption within the forces and the overall security of thecountry that you now ?enjoy?.
Start pointing the fingers at the REAL PROBLEM since it surely isn't the USA.
TB
TB. I understand your point being that you're from Texas and all. But really, the USA government does support foreign economies. It also supports the drug cartels internationally by refusing to find a solution to the drug epidemic which dictates supply and demand globally. Now, if the citizens of the USA, upper. middle and lower classes find it becoming of them to support the Taliban, by cinsuming dope, the Colombian cartels but sniffing coke and the Mexican cartels by smoking pot shouldn't the USA also assist other nations in combating the drug flow too?
Part of what you alledge is very true. But I would point out that the US IS assisting OTHER NATIONS in combattilg thedrug cartels,whether they be in Afganastan, Columbia or Mexico. It isindeed sad that the major purchases of these frugs are centered in theUSA. that fact, however, soes not mitigate the responsibility ofthe other nations to vigerously combat such a threat to world society. What do you think these countries would do about the problem, shouldtheUS NOT prod tham continuously to assist in interdicting the shipments that ALSO affect their communities and society?
As to any "bombing" within the borders of Pakistan, that is a fact that has not yet occurred, DannyVC, so the point is moot and without substance, so get your facts straight and don't spread false rumors in support of your own agenda of US denegration. Such gets old after awhile.
TB
BTW, this also was the reason for the "invasion" of Grenada later in the century after the Cuban Militaray forces were entrenched on that island.
For my part, I just wish the USA would leave the awarding of funds in support of other countries to the appropriate UN Agencies. if that were to happen, you would see many of thecurrent recipients of UA largess screaming their blody heads off for a renewal of those largesses pronto.
the benevolence of the USA, in support of foreign countries, since the end of WWII to the present day is not to be ignored because of economic philosophies and political differences.
You and your ilk are forever ignoring these historical facts in pursuit of your own agendas.
TB
I remember that during the Iran-Contra scandal father Bush was investigated for working with Noriega from Panama to import tons of cocaine into the US for use in purchasing the weapons from Iran for use in Nicaragua. I guess that jaded me alittle. The US is still the best and safest. But our selfishness, gas consuming huge SUVs is crazy. I've seen with my own eyes a cafeteria employee as part of his daily duties, throw into that garbage, pounds and pounds of fresh salad, fruits and bread. That was crazy too. Our consuption rate is out of control both regular consumer goods and illegal substances.
That country physically subjugated literally millions of citizens of other countries adjacent to the USSR from the end of WWII until it's internal collapse in the 80's. the citizens of both the USSR andthose adjacent countries lived in fear of midnight raids on their premises for imagined "crimes against the people", when, in fact, such crimes were perpetrated from fear of opposition. Over 20 Million people died in the Gulags simply because they differed philosophically from the ruling Communist Party. Their crime was that they "marched to a different drummer". Remember that, they too, invaded Afganistan in support of the incumbent Communist government. Tell me the differences between they and the USA exercising that same prerrogative???
Different drummers beat a different rhythm to follow. by Texas Bill
TB
http://www.fad.mil.do/
And some history which actually proves that the DR was a tone point at least the main Aereal Force power in the caribbean during the Trujillo Era, as you will see from that link, the US has never been happy about the DR having aereal firepower, but back then, DR did what it wanted to do anyways because there was virtually no dependency on the US (since Trujillo had paid the external debt):
http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/a..../dominican_rep/DomRep-af-home.htm
And to everyone, c'mon, you don't sinerely think that DR pilots are going to simply point and shoot down planes do you? I am sure these are going to be trained individuals, who will be given very specific instructions and procedures to shoot down as the last resort. But the DR does not, and should not depend on foreign powers to protect their air space, it is THEIR air space and they should enforce RESPECT over it.
How can you make theassertion that the US was unhappy about the strength of the FAD when they sold 99% of the equipment to ALL of the Dominican Armed Forces? Then on top of that, they trained all of the senior officers of that force at the Air War College and other military schools run by the US Armed Forces.
I might add that it has NEVER been the policy of mitigating in any form the military education of Dominican Forces from what ever branch they may have represented. Serious research would categorically refute your allegations to that point.
TB
you make some good points, but as a direct question to you.. in reference to the above comment. The US also provided the Taliban & Usama bin Ladin with firearms and knowledge on how to use it.. they also provided the same for Fidel Castro when he was still in good terms with the CIA.. . how do you think Americans feel now about the consiquences ??
If they shoot a few down I am sure the message will be send.
Funny you negative people.. you no who you are.. blame the goverment no matter what they do
I say shoot a few down and lets see who wants to fly drugs in next week!
What were discussing here is the Dominican Republic and not the Mid-East.
But, just for your edification, Castro DID bamboozle the Cia anad the US in order to get weaposn for his revolution against the then "de jur" government of Cuba andas a result ofhis revolution became the "de facto" government. The Cubans merely traded one dictator for another which wasn't anything to brag about.
How do Americans feel about those events??? Personally, I'm mad as hell at the CIA.
TB
Did you read http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/a..../dominican_rep/DomRep-af-home.htm it clearly states that the US blocked in MULTIPLE instances the DR from buying war planes. In some of the cases the DR bought them anyways even the if the first seller was not available.
stay on topic Planes and DR and drugs not Taliban and russia and Bin Laden
easy on the drugs yourself man focus!
Thanks for the response.. I understand that the CIA backed the Afghan's in an effort to help them with the USSR invasion at the time.. I did't mean to go off topic, just wanted to hear an opinion from someone as outspoken as yourself on the topic.
I like that the government is at least showing strong aggresion against the parasites that control the drug trade. However, I simply believe where not quite ready to go full blown rambo on them.. tI suggest they bring in foriegn experts as consultants.
The following comment is "Off Toppic", but must be said for the sake of fairness and between fact and manufactured fiction (the twisting of events to fit personal agendas).
To begin with, I cannot support the premise being put forth by certain elements posting on these pages, that it was/is the intention of the USA to do other than protect it's interests in any geographical area. That interest being the absolute defense of it's "way of life" at all costs. Every govenment has that goal in mind in ALL it'sdealings with friend and foe alike.
The International Political arena has, and always will be, an almagamation of these efforts by individual nations. That is a foregone conclusion and no-one can deny that fact. The world is aware of the ideological conflict between the now defunct Soviet Union and the Western World. The efforts of both camps of political and economic philosophy are well documented by the world communications media, so no further comment there.
In the final analysis, both camps committed actions which were contrary to their goals of "winning the hearts and minds" of other individual nations. That is also a fact which, at times has been blown out of proportion to the actual event reported. All such does is point out publically, that ill thought out remedies to the problem were faulty and needed to be modified.
In the long run, World Opinion has prevailed and nations have changed their "modus operendi" to fit within that world opinion. The goal of a "balance of power" within the international community is ever present. Hence, the efforts of using a "jihad" to effect those goals is in conflict with other elements in the political and economic scenario world wide.
The sectarian violence in the Mid-East has been cooking for centuries and will continue to cook for possibly centuries more, until people learn to live together for the common good.
I realize that in many cases I am "preaching to the choir", but feel in my heart that certain things need to be said.
Back to the DR.
I realize that there is still a great deal of ill-feeling by certain Dominican elements, against the US because of past "invasions" by US forces. It must be said, however, that those "invasions" were not designed to "conquer and occupy" this nation as a sattelite, but to stabilize and influence it's future. I believe those goals were accomplished, whatever the outcome was. In the 1900's the "Monroe Doctrine" was still being followed and that was the driving force of the occupation which took place at that time. historically, that occupation served to coalesce the conflicting political elements within the country. That it served to facillitate Trujillo's rise to power is recognized, but the country enjoyed a very long period of stability as a result. This event upset the internal "balance of power".
Another potential threat in the Caribbean presented itsel as a result. The introduction of elements from the US stated enemy of Cuba entered the political and economic scenario in an attempt to fill the power void of the country. Opposing elements were brought tinto play which the then sitting Ambassador viewed as a threat to American residents andthe stability of the territory.
Us Forces were called in in an attempt tostabilize the situation of conflict which arose.
While many of you won't agree, this action did stabilize the country and began the introduction of the political and economic situation which we still have.
Good or Bad?? That depends on your individual interpretation of DR History.
Historically, the DR has had many "Ups andDowns", both economically and politically, for better or for worse. Through it all this nation has adjusted to the changing situations andhas emerged for the better.
That, in and of itself is a tribute to the nations people.
What we have today is what we have always had. Control of both the government and the economy by a select few who rule behind the scenes. These have proven to be a stabilizing influence on the political and economic elements at work in this society. The y are the REAL POWER in this country and they have, for the most part, kept it from sinking into chaos and anarchy.
You may not agree with me as to my assessment, but the facts and History speak louder than my feeble words ever can.
In the final analysis (I really like to use tha phrase), this is theelement which must change the internal dynamics that are at work and demand of the government those actions which will elevate this country from it's feudalism and into the 21st century so it can take it's rightful place in the community of nations.
Nuff said.
TB
I dont understand whats so hard here if thee refuse to respond to controllers or pilots then shoot them down.
A cessna at night flying over Maaco is not sight seeing
the plane is flying low with drugs
By the time they get the consultants report the could have fixed half the problem!
I wish there was a nicer way to arrest drug carriers but they no its a risk!
a friend of mines daughter just got arrested in Australia after flying there with 8 kilos
Very Sad... she is 24 and in with a bad crowd!
now she going to jail for 5-6 years at least
I hope she learns this was just a stupid stupid thing but, people will always risk and do crazy things to make some fast money.
I believe some people like the rush
THE LOCALS I HAVE SPOKE TO ARE UNDERSTANDING AND THANKFUL TO THE USA!
THESE PEOPLE WERE ALIVE, WORKING AND LIVING WHEN THE USA LANDED.
THEY WERE HAPPY THEY CAME TO HELP.
THEY WISH IT NEVER HAD TO HAPPEN
THE COUNTRY HAS IMPROVED
SORRY JOSEAN!
Certainly you don't take the attitude that EVERY DOMINICAN thinks as you do. You must remember that litle fact as you make the assertions that they do.
One of the reaasons that there are so many political parties in the DR is that many people have different ideas of what "Politics" is all about and view the world through a different set of lenses. The many different colors of senses sends itself to many different aenues of thought--or, haven't you thought about that element?
Remember, the roots of Democracy lies in therespect for the other fellows opinion and thought patterns, not just yours.
I find I must take my own aadvise from time to time when the rhetoric gets hot andheavy, then sit back and reflect on what OTHER people's opinions may be. Even then I have to keep myself from making up false statistics in support of my premise.
DO YOU??? Think about it, pardner.
TB
DrCiSkoFC, The idea of bringing consultants is tortured mindless reasoning...these parasites are entering DR's air space illegally and your suggesting is that we get consultants ? outrageous !!
On the other hand, what i do see happening in the future (given our history of corruption) is the cartel could simply payoff high-ranking military officials ...
now with respect to Texasboy's comment :
> That it served to facillitate Trujillo's rise to power is recognized,
> but the country enjoyed a very long period of stability as a result...
The enjoyment was for Trujillo and his thugs, the country suffered - people's civil rights
were violated (how fitting - MLKjr day) and not to mention the genocide and atrocities committed..
as MLKjr once said --
" it seems that I can hear God saying to Ameri
" it seems that I can hear God saying to America You are too arrogant! "
RON PAUL 2008 - TRANSITION TO SMALL LEAN GOVERNMENT , NO RESERVE BANK!
While I agree that Trujillo was an unmitigated bastard and a monster of a dictator, he DID stabilize the country, even if it was through fear. That's NOT to his credit, however.
The point I was TRYING to make was this--- During that time there was NO FOREIGN DEBT, Equal monetary exchange, low unemployment (even though Trujillo owned most of thebusinesses bought with money he stole from government coffers), the country WAS stable.
We are now struggling with high unemployment, a HUGE National Debt (caused by both Hipolito and Fernandez Administrations and Legislators franic to get their share), practically NO budget for Education, Health and TRUE Infrastructure (except in the Capital Zone) funding.
Unequivically, I am NOT giving support for the Trujillo dictatorship. I am well aware of that man's propencities and his methods and do not advocate them by any stretch of the imagination.
I would appreciate it if you would re-read my post with that in mind and not get all worked up over your imagining my support of Trujillo.
Just remember that Hitler rose to power when the Weimer Republic failed after WWI in
Germany. The same thing happened in the DR after the brief revolution of 1965 between the political factions then at odds.
Many people blame theUS for theturmoil that followed, but one must remember that there was a lot of internal conflict at the time and consider what could have resulted otherwise. That was outlined above in previous post and please don't acuse me ever again of supporting a Dictatorship of any kind. Like you, I hate them with a passion.
TB
I guess "STABLE" is open to interpretation... yours, is certainly not my definition of stability...
Just like J hoover and the FBI harassed and relentless persecuted suffered by MLKjr , but at least the US was stable... right ? somewhat parallel to el "El Jefe" where THE PEOPLE are pushing for change.. such was MLK and followers, as well as Jewish and other religions at that time, were pushing for change in civil rights... but were oppressed over and over by the government (affraid of communism) ....
althoug, in my view, what J Hoover and the FBI did to MLKjr is much worse because they were masquerading as leaders of the free world blah blah blah and behind the curtains same old agenda, that of a dictator, in a nutshell.... As US HISTORY VERY WELL SHOWS...
THIS COUNTRY NEEDS CHANGE! BY THAT I MEAN -- NOT HILLARY OR ROMNEY OR OBAMA - THEY REPRESENT SAME OLD GOVERNEMNT.. AMERCA FACES SERIOUS OBSTACLES AHEAD -- SPEC ECONOMICaALLY -- LUCKLY FOR DR AND OTHER NATIONS THEY ARE NOT SO DEPENDANT ON US ECONOMY (but still may be impacted) WHEN 51 OF THE TOP 100 economies in the world ARE CORPORATIONS AND NOW CHINA HAVING SERIOUS STAKES ON THESE CORPORATIONS YOU HAVE A PRBLM...
QUALITY OF LIFE
QUALITY OF LIFE
QUALITY OF LIFE
QUALITY OF LIFE !!
Rodrigito, let's start again from the begining, huh?
To begin with, I respect your anger over what you perceive as being a gross disrespect for human activity and wellbeing on the part of politicians and large corporations.
There are many times that I feel the same way about the events unfolding before my eyes.
I don't trust politicians any further than I can throw them and I'm sure you feel the same way.
I have been taught to deal in facts, not in or with emotions. When seeking those facts, one must cast aside those personal emotions which cloud andfrustrate the logic being applied, whether it be through inductive or deductive analysis of events.
The results of both economic, political and social actions have far reaching consequences. Those consequencies of past actions are still with us today and affect our everyday lives. That is a given.
I would ask you and others (and sometimes, myself included) just what is the medium by which we seek to accomplish our goals. That question is, andalways will be, MONEY. Or, in other words, a MEDIUM OF EXCHANGE, for without it the entire world would come to a screeching halt.
Politicians know this fact intrincinctly. They also realize that the accumulation of the "medium of exchange" beyond their, or their countries, basic needs will have theresult of a conversion of the excess into power which can be converted into an intimidating ingredient which will produce more power.
Populations just happen to be part of that "power equation" and are used to the advantages of the political systems.
That same ingredient transfers into the economy and the acompaning societies.
If you think, or believe otherwise, you are a very naive individual and will consequently become a drone in anysociety.
While we two may have opposing economic, social and political leanings, we both are following our selected paths toward accomplishing the goals of those leanings.
I grew up in the South (of the USA) andit wasn't until I became an adult that the events of my past came into focus. Guess I'm just a bit slow sometimes. But as I looked back into my brief history, I realized that many of the "truths" I had held were not only false, but were couched in bigotry and inhumanity to minorities. This realization had a lasting effect on me. I realized that in fairness to myself and to those "others" in society, I had to NOT continue taking the other persons word a a gospel; that I had to analyse each and every situation confronting me in the light of historical fact and with humanity. Unfortunately, I've not always been able to do that, though I have sincerely tried to be fair in all dealings with others.
While you may think that I am being condescending, I don't really mean to be, nor have my comments interpreted in that manner. If you are of that opinion, then please forgive my usage of words here.
We must always realize that politicians have an entirely different thought pattern than those of us who don't seek public office. They are driven by an inherent ego and self perpetuating efforts to accomplish thegoals of the philosophy they embrace. They expound on those elements of emotionalism which incites support from those who are convinced by their rhetoric.
Marx was one of those,as was Marx, Lenin, Engel and Stalin. In opposition were those followers of Adam Smith and other supporters of the Capitalistic systems. Then you have that element ofg religious philosophies intering into the equation.
In the world today, we have the various modifictions of these systems at play and through it all, we have the populations which are at the mercy of them all.
So, what do we do as individuals?
We can accept that which is (the status quo), or we can speak against that which we consider to be unequal, irreverent and debilitating to the progress of man toward that dream of a Utopia.
We both seek the latter. We just have different ways of communicationg those goals.
Politicians are the medium through which we gain those goals. They, like all of us, have an agenda for success. We just have to deal with that element, because in today's societies, they have the current power position. We need to convince THEM, not ourselves, that their current methods and procedures are not what we want. And that, my friend, is how Democracy works.
It is not always successfully promulgated, but eventually it works to the advantage of the people, providing the people realize just how much power they have over the events of both the present and the future.
The main element of a Democracy lies in an INFORMED society acting for themselves.
When you refer to politicians,you are most likely comparing the ones in USA to those in DR.
There is no comparison: those in DR are schooled in stealing and answer to no one ,not even to their own party. They are placed by the president and steal as much as they can while they can.
Over here in the USA they answer to their constituent. There is a flaw in the USA presidential
election thought, where you can become presint even thoght you don't obtain the majority of the
votes as long as electoral college wins you are in, such was the case of Jorge Bush in Florida.
Electoral college is obsolite since it was original implemented when the USA citizens were mostly illiterates and some one somewhere had to make the decision for them,and came up with that idea.My opinion is they should do away with it as well as billions spent by special interest to influece the congress (bribery) lobeing .A good example is the pharmaceutical industry went up by 400% in the last 10 yrs.
>It is not always successfully promulgated, but eventually it works
>to the advantage of the people, providing the people realize just
>how much power they have over the events of both the present and the future.
so much for democracy and people having the power to elect...
As RACIER mentions above, "such was the case of Jorge Bush in Florida"
how much influence do you think "WE, THE PEOPLE" had in that election ?
nada, zero, null -- the whole thing was fixed !!
If we (in the US) continue in this path of arrogance and ignorance on issues such as
global warming (largely in part by big corps with scary political reach) and many other issues,
Democracy will be nothing but a mere figment of our imagination, because THEY (the corps)
will then be deciding for the people who the next pres should be, because as you (TB) said " without $ the entire world would come to a screeching halt " but just remember that without a planet all the $ in the world is worthles
Democracy, as we have known it, is dead.
It will take drastic measures to bring about change, we need a presidential candidates that is not so influenced by special interest groups.. perhaps by way of a 3rd political party ..
Can't wait for the release of Colin Powell's book to read how the people we cheated this time around..
On a diff note---
The news is out - Kennedys back Obama for president. Talk about perfect timing, one day before Super-Tuesday, and what about Sen. Kennedy's speech .. wow! the man spoke from his heart for over 30 minutes, and what a speech it was.
Meanwhile, the class-less Clintons seem to backing off of Obama, 'bout time they showed come class. These people will do just about anything to have their way, which is why I'm not voting for Hillary -she's not in this race for the people or the country for that matter, but rather for their personal gains. In my opinion Hillary represents more of the same old special-interest tired politics.
I personally dont like any of the candidates running on either side of the aisle, guess we are left with choosing the lesser evil ... good luck tomorrow ..
You're ONE WEEK ahead of yourself.
Super Tuesday isn't until February 5th (ie., NEXT TUESDAY!!)
However what you say is mostly true about the Clintons. Bill, while possessing a great deal of "charisma" is, at heart, devout socialist who was kept in check only by the moguls of both major political parties during his tenure as President. AIn addition to that, his "lawyer" persona was very evident during the Grand Jury hearings over the scandal he created with what's her name, his "aide" in illicit sexual activities during office.
Only the cowardice of the collective Congress prevented him from being impeached. And it might still be that Bush will be impeached if sufficient evidence is presented over many of his actions and those of his subordinates, over which he had administrative control, who issued orders in his name. In that , he isno better than the current incumbent in the DR.
It is entirely possible that the change emerging will benefit the US. Who knows.
TB
dude the atty who represented Bill CLinton during his trial is actually backing Obama for president, This is a person who know Bill Clinton for many years!!! it goes to show the "pull" Obama has.. he is the only candidate , on both sides, who is for the people..some compare him to RFK !! CAROLINE, TED, endorse him!! come'on -- people wake up!! the is the clear choice ... on top of all the big endorsements Obama has more legislative experience than Hillary and Edwars combined (8 yrs) AND is older than Bill clinton when he took office AND IN ADDITION TO THAT ** HAS ** MORE FOREIGN POLICY EXPERIENCE THAN BILL CLINT WHEN HE TOOK OFFICE.... OBAMA actually voted for the COPS program (research COPS program by the FED in the 90s) when you have sens like Kenndy, Kerry, sen from N. Dakota & S. Dakota endorsing B.OBAMA that says somehting.. its gonna be interesting... I too agree w/ what you have said..
re: impeaching bush -- have you heard of the FBI undercover agent who revealed that sadam admitted to him personally to not having WMDs... and that he (sadam) was more affraid of IRAN than US invation.. but yet there is (and will never be) any accountability .. these people in this presidency will never be held accountable.. they had congress .. what else you could ask for.. to this date and there is a year left.. republicans (or dems) have yet to call a hearing or witnesses on this issues... and trust me there are plenty...
and regarding your response to my comment about CEOs and corrupt politicians 0--- you very well know there are a plethora of republicans being investigated on all sort of charges... may of them in congress , still in congress, and still voting on issues.. its unbelieabeble ... how abou the former congressman that was indicted over links to islamic charity..
Hey, back off. I agree that the DR is not alone when it comes to corrupt politicians andgovernent officials. The US has it's quota of those, maybe more. Other countries fall into thesame cartegory, so let's not focus on one alone.
What I was referring to was the recent movement within theranks of Congress implying impeaching Bush when and if they could uncover the necessaray evidense and garner support in Congress for such a move. Nothing more and nothing less.
As to isolating Republicans vis-a-vis Democrats on the take, I think you are either purposefully ignoring those Democrats who have been under indictment and found guilty or else you are not as well informed as you pretend to be.
I am not singling out either party for such. Let the trees fall where they may. Rep or Dem, it makes no difference.
TB