Watch'em like a hawk... Haitians spring out of nowhere

we should buy some of those huge thanks that the Russians and Americans have .. so when they spring out we run over them! like incects! get out of our country! Dominican Republic is for Dominicans! :b

Haitians want to take over Dominican Republic and it's time that the goverment do something proactive against Haitians.

We can't allow Haitians to abuse our soil and our constitution as They Please.

Way to go Carlos Franco and Euromax, We need to watch this people really close since We are
getting close to have issues with these creatures.

The 3 platano-stooges are all banding together for a common interest: their obsession of Haitians. We're creatures now Rubi??? Ain't it sad that during the post-colonial era..the DR was militarily invaded by a bunch of nonhumans? Those same creatures defeated the mighty French too. Pretty resilient creatures don't you think?

HaykicyouintheShin: But going "BACKWARDS" dear friend, what good does it make If You haven't achieve anything positive yet that Could be shown to the rest of the planet that You and Your people want progress and civilization.

Every year and every decade Haiti an its people are going back to the past, don't you feel sorry that You haven't done anything positive in the past few years, not wonder why the UN can't leave You guys alone.

It would be a mess withint another mess, the mighty "French" left You alone because They didn't want to deal with the "Butchery" that You had 200 years ago and still have it today too.

lol. My friend you're simply not worth my time. This discussion is finito! I'll see your bigotry later.

Any comment made to a haitian has to infer racism, it's the role of the victim that they use to cloak themselves from the truth. And the truth is a nation with an inept goverment could never move forward, a nation that has molded itself through the tradition of discriminating it's majority black population from a very small elite of mulatto's, testifies to it's ever inflicting and self destructive existence its pathetic and sickening! and now they want to push their problem on its neighbor the Dominican Republic, the latter authorities must deport massively haitians and demand that those that despise them take care of their own. CALL ME A RACIST I DONT CARE!!!!!

arcatype: welcome to the reality club "dear brother", since I being pounded right and left being called a "Redneck" and maybe something else.

Haitians are not willing to do any positive change for themselves and this has to be seen by the
rest of the international community instead of pounding Dominican Republic for not reason.

We need to defend ourselves before is "TOO LATE", Haitians are organizing secret societies in our country so They eventually can take over.

They still believe in their deep ignorance "Minds" that "Quisqueya" belongs to them and They need more open space to continue destroying, polluting and intoxicating our land.

I do have my sources and this is the main reason that "Day by day" We Dominicans need to watch our backs and be smart enough.

I agree 100% JRRUBIROSA.

Stop your jerk discussions over the something you don't even know what you were talkin about. haitians go to imigrate in RD to get a better life, to work hard and bust the RD economy. It's always been like that to find people move place to places around the worldto progress economically and sociallly. If Haitians are in Dominican Republic, the Dominican people should prove fraternity and friendship to show to the entire world that they can accept any ethnics of people regardless of race, sex, gender, transgender and with no form of discriminations. I'm Haitian i live in America i see a lot of Haitians and Dominican. Sometimes, they work in the same place, go to school, and some even doing business together. I ever see they talk like your comments i don't know it may be, but not obviouly, you know why the can't talk like your devilish lips because there are law against discriminations,harassement and others. it's fact both Dominicans and haitians escape from poverty tat's the reality

Listen i hope you guys. We gonna stop being haters either haitians or Dominicans comment. As Haitians i might think you don't understand the philosophy of the society. The human are stick together and because of race, religion, sex, classes we are divided. That division doesn't take not only in Haiti and DR, but the whole world interfer in this system. A division whcich before provoked World War II, it always bring conflict between nations. And only unity can make the our world a peaceful place. So Dominicans are the only nation that don't like immigrants same for some power countries they don't like immigrants also. Even they have knowledge immigrants have made their countries ecnomically stronger. They don't recognize it. They think immigrants come to steal their jobs or their lands. People still do not understand the evolution of our world was begun by the movement of men to live or immigrate in a place where they can have enough shelters, foods and others to survive. LOVE,LUV

Guys think about global warming you will see what's my viewpoint is? An example global warming will force million of us to move out for in other lands..... Today people flee away because of social condition. Tomorrow people will seek refuge around the globe because of weather. Better think of that instead of your haters comment. Peaceeeeeeeeeee.

Welcome to the site, mr. manno. Sadly, you're wasting your precious time debating with these people. They don't really understand that, as people sharing the same island, dominicans and haitians have the duty to help each other, if they want the island to make it into the next century, because, as reality has proven time and again, neither can survive while the other is in trouble. It's like a ship, and like that, it'll not be able to sail succesfully until its crew agree to drop their mutual animosities.

Lautaro, where have you been. I love your analogy..unfortunately people just dont want to realize that if a leak is on the other end the WHOLE ship will eventually sink. I have come to realize that those that have there bellies full in the exterior are simply out of touch with reality and also there own struggle abroad as mostly uneducated people. The discrimination, racism, and other issues will always exist in any society. Just when it happens to you don't cry a river about you being targeted unfairly because you came here to work and just feed your family. On the other hand I understand that an influx of illegals to DR is a concern rather than spew diatribes and push the people down why not give them support to plug that leak so that kiskeya,quisqueya can sail smoothly. Look into that mirror and do some soul searching. You'll eventually find that hatred staring at your face. Glod bless Quisqueyanos, Haitianos,Dominicanos..

It's disheartening to see that some people can't understand that this bickering have only led to us being screwed badly by the powers at be at the international level, mr. jabao. At the end of the day, we islanders have only each other to rely upon, considering that, if we don't get to put our differences aside, we'll risk being chewed and swallowed by the growing competition from the Asian Tigers, which are proving to be formidable competitors, indeed.

Lautaro, I am perplexed by such diatribes without the peopel taking consideration of there own situation abroad or if legal the perception of there community I ask myself what kind of dominicans are these people. They certainly aren't the ones I've encountered. The NGO's are laughing all the way to the bank and relaxing on our beaches due to our senseless bickering which will not benefit the natives of islands rather make more NGO's find ways to make money of the plight of two poor countries. The tigers claw have a serious grip of the treasure and doesn't seem it will be letting go anytime soon. Let's hope that we can weather the storm and adapt with the flow of things.

This is very funny.......CarlosFranco, Euromax, and Arcatype are here spewing their venom about Haitians, but at the same time "Juan' in Ponce is saying worst about you Dominicans. You assholes make me laugh. How can a nation with 9 million people, that has a poverty rate of almost 80%, and no standing army since 1990 pose a threat.....I think D.R. is the threat, not Haiti. You have M-16's, tanks, Jets, and bombs. Your the one who threaten to invade in 1999, You do massive deportations, you depict Haitians like cockroaches, you defame our languages, you insinuate were devil-worshippers, you support and provide aid to Terrorist that want to rape, kill, maim, and overthrow our government.....Now tell me once again who is the threat.

this thread is a sad commentary on relations between people of colour and culture in a small space

jemesouviens1804: "I think D.R. is the threat, not Haiti. You have M-16's, tanks, Jets, and bombs."

We have all those weapons and yet we don't invade haity... Thats a sign of Dominican peace loving society... An also, threating to invade isn't an invasion and am pretty sure we were justified in doing so.... Haiti has since independence in 1844, invaded DR 11 times... Yet we peace loving dominicans having an army and a sutiable conditions for intervention have tried to keep ourselves away from the internal problems of haiti.

These are Historical Facts...

CarlosFranco you must get it thru your head that Haiti's invasion of the DR happened in the 1800s! Haiti can never be a physical "threat" to the DR. As jemesouviens said we are a poor country with no army and a weakened state of political solidarity..DR can always protect itself from Haiti if it wanted to and in fact the DR could invade Haiti anytime it wanted to. You guys are the real "threat". How can Haitians in the DR take over the DR? By what means? The overwhelming majority of Haitians in the DR migrate for a better life much the same way you do to PR. What possible threat could there be? Sometimes I wonder if you guys actually believe what you say.

This is indeed a sad sad situation. Reading these comments are a new revelation to me and I am appalled. Please let's not go into history to explain TODAYS struggles between the two brother nations. Western europe have invaded each other thru out history and none seem to have such animosity towards each other for things done in the past? I guess they've done the dominican people a favor. Why not condemn the spaniards for their atrocities commited on the dominican people. Please can we stay in this century where it is obvious that many are still "atrasado" as if we were living in the 17th century. I am certainly praying for all of you. I am speechless..My gosh..I wonder what north americans & europeans even latin america think after reading such comments. Are we in the 21st century.. I am sure they are flabbergasted that a bunch of platanos and rice eating people can have such hate for another platanos & rice eating neigbhour..

It seems dominicans abroad have more problems with haitains living in the DR than dominicans living in the DR going thru the difficulties. Are you forgetting that most of the dominican community are not a group of immigrants that are showered with welcome confettis and the red carpet? I understand the patriotic and false sense of defending the patria from the evil haitains that deep down yearn to run the dominican republic due to propaganda and frankly lack of understanding the two nations. But you people are in a first world country and think far more backwards than a campesino from Cibao. Milking uncle sam and enjoying the fruits of a developed country. What's wrong with you people. Haven't you met haitians in your states. Or do you act as if the two people are enemies? I pray lord for these people they don't know any better. forgive them Lord for they do not know what they say.

The astounding thing about it all, jabao, is that those same people are capable of calling themselves christians while at the same time meditating the destruction of their neighbours. No wonder there are some people over there trying to put limitations to the freedom of speech, were they to read some of the hateful remarks seen over here, they would feel with all the reason in the world to sustain their points.

"But you people are in a first world country and think far more backwards than a campesino from Cibao. "

I'm a campesino from the Cibao and as such I take offense to that comment. Many people posting on here can learn a thing or two from some of the people that live in the campos of the Cibao. There is a wisdom there that one cannot find so easily in academia. The most progressive people in DR are indeed the Cibaeños. Not a cool comparison by any means, jabao.

Cibaeno, manito tranquilo..:) Your post is exactly what I'm trying say that although quote on quote los dominicanos en el exterior tiene todo los recursos son mas atrasado de los campesinos que no tienen nada. The hospitality and pride those campesinos have of there region and simply in harmony with nature is far more advance and can't be taught in a classroom nor being in a first world country. I was trying to depict the false conception that the dominican diaspora are more knowledgeable of the world and events but reality is they are still confined in small box although they've been transplanted in the great USA. By reading these comments you would think these people have never seen the capitol of DR let alone USA. Disculpame mi hermano..that wasn't my intention at all to humiliate those from the province which is the foundation of the culture of dominican people..God bless you and I have a great weekend. Thanks for letting me know how you felt.Hope that I cleared it up 4 u.

"..the province which is the foundation of the culture of dominican people.."

Y dilo duro...Thank you for the clarification, Jabao..I wish you a great weekend as well.

To:CarlosFranco,
Im still trying to figure out what you mean by "Peace and loving society". What kind of peace and loving society would call their neighbors names like "Negrito" make fun of how "dark and ugly" they are, lable one of their languages as a "slave language", and forever pray for the demise of their people and country. In Haiti we call those kind of people "traitres". Haiti has not bothered to waste its time invading D.R. since 1861. Check you facts alright. This is the reason why all other countries in the world see through the D.R. when it comes to the relationship with Haiti. If D.R. was at all concern about the state of Haiti your country would not be providing Terrorist with a save haven to conduct their subversive acts in Haiti. By the looks of it, D.R. should be put on the list of nations that sponsors Terrorism.

This article below just shows what type of relationship that the D.R. wants to have with Haiti......Not a progressive relations where both countries engage in deals and transaction that are mutual, but one that guarantees that the D.R. will have favorable and better relations in which the Dominican Republic prospers over that of the Haitian state and people.

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43/109.html

Jemesouviens...s'il te plait, arrete!! Nou pa ka pale de racisme ni discrimination paske nou genyen li lakay nou tou. Map pale anglais pou'm clarifier bagay yo. Mwen konnen ou vexer mais pa desenn lan mem nivo ak cretin sa yo. Tout dominikain pa pensé konsa. The term negrito can be used as an endearment or in a derogatory manner. Obviously if a dominican uses towards a haitian as in " that negrito etc." but if they are in a relationship the dominican my call the haitian or even a white dominican "mi negrito/a". It is the same as we use the word "neg" in creole where we have many facets of using for endearment or lashing out. Let's not give simple words power which is the only way it can effect you. Let's stay away from race discussion..haitians and dominicans have more to combat first b4 the complicate issue of negritude and hispanophile. Another thing I read the article and from my point of view is throwing fuel at the haitian community to further increase tension.

cont.. I do agree with certain points in the article but it is twisted so much that I wouldn't take it too seriously. I do think USA and the international community want to unite the countries but I don't think the average dominican want that nor the average haitian. Although the elite dominicans well have easier access to cheap labour and Haitian elites will benefit from the trade, so there might be a possibility. Although It is obvious that the two nations need to have bilateral agreement we have to make sure that the common haitians and common dominican benefit from this first rather than elites of both groups. Your point of demonstrating that haiti doesn't want to invade the DR is not worth it. Any person with a half of a brain and common sense knows that is a joke and shouldn't be taken seriously. Don't waste your time explaining things to people that refuse to be objective and have a strong conviction of the propaganda. Neg lakay..pozé.. kembé tet ou en yaut.

A real recipe for disaster and failure. One dumb nation uniting with a stupid one.

pick your order.

To:JabaoHaitian,
Pardonnez-moi mon ami, mais....Je ne peux pas considérer ni plus. Ils peuvent dire ce qu'ils veulent, mais nous ne pouvons pas. It is unfair and unjust how those guys can come on here and spit their diatribes while the moderator of this page sits on his/her ass and does not even delete thier Comments....But when we Haitians attempt to fight back, were are labeled as racist and our comments are deleted..... Il n'y aura jamais de paix et d'harmonie entre Haïtiens et Dominicains. "Moun sa yo pa fe anyen avek nou".

Vous devriez écrire en anglais puisque tout le monde ne peut comprendre le creol, ou le patua, ou le français. Il est grossier pour faire. Vouse n'est creer pas??

Please, you really should keep it in English.

"Il n'y aura jamais de paix et d'harmonie entre Haïtiens et Dominicains".

Please don't be so pessimistic, mr. souviens. In the latest polls made about the political arena of the DR, a 40% of the people interviewed says that they really want peace and harmony to exist between both nations. That shows that some sort of advancement have been made on those relations, considering that during Balaguer's era these were much, much worse. Also, during this administration I haven't heard as many cases of human rights abuses against the inmigrants as it was the norm during the 80's and 90's.

Ladronazo, I was writing a comment to Mr. JabaoHaitian, who wrote a comment directed at me. My response was for him and not neccessarily to everyone on the "comment board"....I don't know where you come at with the "patua" though, becuase I dont speak or even know that language.

Patua or patois is the stereotypical name given to kreyol on the DR.

Lautaro, thats exactly the problem that I find and its mind boggling to me. Why is it that only 40% of your brothers and sisters want peace. This shows that the majority want nothing to do with Haiti and would rather have the past influence the present. I dont know about you but I would feel a little bit more optimistic if the number was above 50%, being that we are in the year 2008.

Hmmm.....I wonder why they can't just say its Kreyol.

Maybe it's for lack of info, although I have heard that there's a kreyol academy over here.

If you're able to read some spanish, please go to the following page:

http://www.hoy.com.do/article.aspx?&id=139388

Hmmmm. I doubt that it's a lack of info, Lautaro. Lets be real, all you have to do is walk down your street and say to someone..."Do you speak Patois or Kreyol".

More than lack of info, I think it's the force of custom. If there's one thing that sets appart the dominican populace from their counterparts on the rest of the Caribbean it's the way that they cling to traditional usages and customs. They'd tell you that a something is yellow even though it might be a proven thing that it's orange, and so on.

Unfortunately Lautaro, Im not very good at all in the Spanish language, although I do love hearing people speak it. If you can just describe what the article is about that would be much more helpful than me trying to read it.

It's about the evolution of the haitian community on the DR in relation to the other groups of the population, and it also deals with the usage of kreyol in the country (it also tells about the academy that regulates the usage of the language throughout the island).

Thank you.

You're most welcome. ;-)

Monsieur jemesouviens1804:
Yes partly correct, for some it's lack of info, but maybe its just laziness in my part or like Lautaro stated "force of custom". Comparable to some of us who don't bother to "dot the i's and cross the t's" or to do spell check.

Now this is what I find boggling, why are Haitians on a predominantly Dominican site? and expressing Ideas and in krayole. It's like me hanging out at a Puerto Rican site and attempting to change the ideas and minds of Puerto Ricans toward Dominicans. It gives the impression that perhaps there isn't a Haitian site where one (Haitians) can go and share and diverge intellectual beliefs and points of views....

In addition it opens you up to more hostility and biased judgments. Now I have no qualms with this (hanging out here) , I really don't, but I find it useless to go to a Puerto Rican site and engage those on their site in the same manner as it's done here. In my view it's just as useless as I going to a Haitian site and doing the same. It just doesn't make sense, unless it's part of an experiment or learning process.

Though there is much that binds us, the reality is there is also much that separates us. I do understand several but not all the reasons why. Because I am not Haitian, have not lived in Haiti, I could never know or understand the plight of Haitians in the same context as Haitians nor could I feel the blades of racism in the same manner as Haitians. Just the same, I am equally critical towards my own countries and people, just in a different way.

Jemesouvioens, Nous devons prendre l'histoire de la République Dominicaine pour comprendre son hostilité vers les haitiens. Malheureusement le trujillismo existent toujours. Besides, Balaguerism also systematically implemented negative haitian stereotypes which the people still have fresh in there head. I sincerely think Haitians & Dominicans will live in peace and harmony in the near future. I know it is upsetting to read non sense and diatribes about our nationality but we must be the bigger person and not fool into such low wave length. Frankly I think dominicans in the exterior are more anti haitian because they are trying to prove the dominicanidad and what better way to be patriotic than to spew diatribes and hold negative stereotypes about their neighbour which have been there for centuries and will always be there and DR remains its identity. Believe 40 percent is alot if you knew how thing were a decade or 2 ago. They are good dominicans and we must remember that

continued...people always remember the defects of others and seldom remember the goodness that they bring. For every diatribe that is written, I can easily counter that with good relationship between the two nations. Let the dominicans that talk garbage continue to do so. Actually it is encouraging and now I know how derange SOME of the dominican diaspora can be. Besides why stop circus shows from performing there only stunt. Lautaro that article was excellent and was so honest that I am shocked. Dominicans are healing and trying to move foward and Haitians are in the process of healing to eventually get its house in order. Why not have a concert at the border J.L. Guerra with Emelin Michel and company to heal the souls of both of the countries. Being dominican doesn't mean I have to hate haitians or vice versa. Lets pray for a better hispaniola which haitians and dominicans share..

i find this thread to be most interesting. the morons started it, and it looked dismal at the beginning. then the intellegent people, the ones that can actually write coherent sentences, have stepped in and rescued it, taking it to a higher level. thanks,Mr Latauro, cibaeno, ladronazo, jabao and others like yourselves, who show always that light is better than heat when it comes to academic matters!

Why is it that the haitians or pro-haitians dont speak about doing things in their own side of the island. that's the thing that makes me angry. Theirs a reason why two nations exist, not one. The majority of dominicans regardless of their race dont want this large scale migration of haitians in the country period, is that to hard for you to understand "LEAVE US ALONE" !!!!! READ THIS ARTICLE THEY GOT MY APPROVAL RIGHT UNDER. http://patrioticaquisqueyana.blogspot.com/

to: Arcatype,
If you dont want Haitians in your country why don't you petition the DR to remove them from your territory with the help of uncle sam. This is the only feasible way to go about this. Whining and moaning like on girl on her period is not going to do anything. Concrete measures must be taken to solve this. Once the Haitians are gone, you can mow your own lawns, cut sugarcane, build your own resorts, extend your metro, build skyscrapers all by yourself. Then you guys are gonna have to find someone else to blame for everything wrong with DR.

Mr. "1804" nobody is bitchin the jobs in the D.R. are limited, you guys are going to be more marginalized. Get ready for the big pinch, what's next Puerto Rico or maybe the U.S. or British Virgin Islands. You guys haven't done jack in this country, all these wealthy businessmen are exploiting you as cheap labor, and unemployed dominicans are getting stiffed. Dont even try to take any credit for the things that we have in our soil. Get your behind organized and build your country, take some pride and stop throwing rocks at each other and use your heads instead of your behinds!!!!! Yes the D.R. has it's own problems no country is perfect, but real change ocurres when you realize that home is where you got to straighten things up.

Haitians have not done anything in the DR?......Now here's a Dominican with lots of pride. Degrade Haitians all you want man, but give credit where its due....I hope you enjoy your stay in your little resort and when your ready to come out in the real world let me know.

Haitians want to take over Dominican Republic and hate us for not having anything positive to show to the rest of the planet.

BACK OFF>>>>>>>>>>>

This guy RRubirosa should be banned from participating in this blog. Each time, I log on, I'm always exposed to his hatred. Are you guys at Dominicantoday.com share this same hatred against Haitians. It's time for management to take their responsibilities. It's about morals!!! Marco

Arcatype, you are not being realistic and are absolutely clueless about the positive contributions. haitians in all spectrum have made in the DR which you abandoned becuase you or your family would've never had the opportunities that you have in the USA. Why are you not in the DR? Leave who alone you mean haitians in the USA to leave dominicans alone there or haitians living in the DR with dominicans on the island? Yes, immigration must be regulated and those that are illegal face deportation. Do you want to repatriate the illegal dominicans in the USA, PR, Spain, British VI. Take your pick. Haitians are working to fix haiti so that people wont cross the border. U guys are really out of touch in the states in need to come down here instead of saying "disparates". MOVE BACK HERE AND START WORKING IN THE CONSTRUCTION, RESORTS, ETC. I thought so that life in the USA is too good even though many are working menial jobs there to come back to splurge for 2 weeks.

mlarosilliere: Is easy for You to point Your dirty finger towards me when Your people are tha ones
that have "Weird" and "Strange" ideas being posted on all these forums about how Dominicans are supposed to think, act or do things to please Haiti and Haitians.

Don't take Your freedom for granted on these forums, Haitians need to respect us since You guys are the guests on "OUR FORUMS" and debating ideas about "OUR COUNTRY"

Is easy for You to :PREACH" convenience for HAITI when at the same time Your people are abusing our "KINDNESS"

Mr. 1804 that's right haitians did not build the Dominican economy, what now you want to take credit from another country that has never wanted to be part of Haiti. Take a look at history we never invaded the western side of the island, you guys need to take care of your country. What's next everything in D.R. is really haitian that's a laugh! Haiti is like the poorest country in the hemisphere, youve done a lot to improve your country????? some haitians are really strange beings.

CHECK THIS OUT INTERESTING http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x52x15_haiti-behind-the-shadow_travel

Well my friend unlike Haiti,DR was not isolated for the first 120 years of its existence.DR did not have to deal with sanctions and embargoes year after year, you did not have Espana extort you out of 21 billion dollars, you did not have to live with the fear of La France or Espana or Etats Unis invading you...All this because you freed the world from slavery...So that comment of us being the poorest nation in the western hemisphere has no bearing. At least Haiti did not try to sell itself to the highest bidder.

Mr. 1804 We did not sell ourselves to the largest bidder, in the year 1821 a group of liberals headed by Jose Nunez De Caceres decided to break ties from spanish rule. Due to the fact that most spanish colonies had already become independent. Spain had just rid itself from Napoleon Bonaparte's troops, but still were dealing with internal conflicts and an economic depression. Due to war and its decline as an empire, at that point the eastern spanish side of the island had limited contacts and supplies from Spain. Also the population was smaller then that of Haiti, so the threat always existed for an occupation. Haiti did not suffer an embargo from the U.S., it did from France and Europe in 1823 the U.S. enacted a policy called the Monroe Doctrine which specifically banned european powers from involving themselves in the affairs of former colonies or present colonies. The U.S. traded with Haiti, but it still did not recognize it's independence.

I suggest that you read an article which i posted earlier and by coincidence appears on a video that i put a link to, from dailymotion. It clearly states that the U.S traded with Haiti, so the embargo excuse is not true Haiti is in bad shape due to its leadership bad governance, corruption and mis-management of it's economy, resources and the race and class struggles that still permeates haitian society. I mean you can start with Henri Christophe and Alexander Petion dividing haiti in two different nations, also J.Dessalines and T.Louverture the first did not embrace the idea of any unification or ties with whites, Toussaint Louverture at the other hand agreed that slavery should be abolished forever but a relationship with France was a way to keep mutual interest and trade as a conduit for a good relationship with whites. As far as the future Dominican Republic it had been invaded two times by Haiti, and finally in 1822 the eastern side became occupied for 22 years until 1844.

heres the link again - http://www.49thparallel.bham.ac.uk/back/issue1/emigres.htm

HAYkickyouintheSHIN you need a kick in the shin...

"Haiti can never be a physical "threat" to the DR. As jemesouviens said we are a poor country with no army and a weakened state of political solidarity..DR can always protect itself from Haiti if it wanted to and in fact the DR could invade Haiti anytime it wanted to. You guys are the real "threat". How can Haitians in the DR take over the DR? By what means?"

Have you heard of the term "Balkanization" a minority within a country working as an agent of a country with a shared culture and ethnicity, that undermines the host country...

HAYkickyouintheSHIN

""Haiti can never be a physical "threat" to the DR. As jemesouviens said we are a poor country with no army and a weakened state of political solidarity"

That’s exactly where the threat lies, Mr. haykickyouintheshin. An army of a million, perhaps more if they were to stampede the border, of poor, uneducated people, with nothing to lose, toughen by life and a rough existence... that is where the threat lies... I don't fear the Haitian Gov. Mr. Haykickyouintheshin


Civilization belongs not to the civilized by necessity, but to whoever is strong enough to take it.

When your going to quote what I've written, make sure that all the wording is correct, and trying not to add your own thoughts to "Juice" it up please. It is very rude to do so, and you being such an intellectual Dominican should know better, Carlos!!!

arcatype, your understanding of US-Haiti relations is tentative at best...
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/7/3759
I think this will help in understanding the complex US-Haitian relation a little better...

http://www.hoy.com.do/article.aspx?&id=139388
Lautaro, I found this article extemely disturbing, It practically advocates making Haitian Creole an official language of the Dominican state which I'm totally against. On top of that it's inuslting to some of the regional groups that make up the Dominican population, mine in particular. I can't believe that this type of crap got published in a Dominican newspaper.

Cibaeno75? What are you trying to imply from the article that you posted? can you expound more in detail your point!

arcatype, your postings imply that Haiti's current economic situation is the result of solely internal developments when the historical record demontrates otherwise. The article I posted addresses the detrimental effect US policies (and the policies of other foreign powers) have had on Haitian development.

After reading the link provided by Cibaeno, I will say what I've been saying to Haitians and Dominicans in relation to Haitian politics......For Haiti to really be prosperous and have stability, it must decrease its ties and relationship with the United States. An increase of relations with nations like Cuba, Venezuela, and Brazil will be much better for Haiti because it is those countries that want to see it rise from the abyss and reclaim its title as "La Perles des Antilles".

Cibaeno75 how can you imply that the U.S. is solely the source for Haiti's economic status. Look at the state in which all countries in the hemisphere are in, they all have high rates of poverty. This is not a phenomenon created solely by imperialism sponsored by U.S. policy. Have you ever heard of the industrial revolution started by the british, technical savvy is what separates progress and non-progress within countries status of developement. Many of the problems that exist within developing countries is related to policies inflicted by the same goverments that are their to serve it's own citizenry, to blame others for all the conditions that exist in your sorrounding is a cop out. I suggest that you read Jean Claude Duvaliers profile so you can get an idea of what im talking about. The man literally spend the countries budget for his personal use and those close to him including goverment officials and military men to splurge in luxury.

"Cibaeno75 how can you imply that the U.S. is solely the source for Haiti's economic status."

I never said that. I said, through implication, that Haiti's current situation does not arise from internal factors alone. That is what I said.

"your postings imply that Haiti's current economic situation is the result of SOLELY internal developments when the historical record demontrates otherwise." (My words with one in particular highlighted...notice which one it is.)

Now I will continue to read your post...

"I suggest that you read Jean Claude Duvaliers profile so you can get an idea of what im talking about."

Indeed, but who helped maintain the Duvaliers in power? Again, read the article I posted to understand the subservient relationship that Haiti's elites have in relation to US interests.

"Have you ever heard of the industrial revolution started by the british"

There was an industrial revolution?!? And it was started by the British?!? I better get out more.

My friend if you did not know? The industrial revolution did begin in England and had an effect on other european countries, remember the british colonized the U.S. so it did extend to the United States, although many ideas were born in the U.S. as the second wave of the industrial revolution came to happen in the continental U.S. As far as Haiti is concern, most of the problem is self inflicted. dont believe all the leftist views. Haiti is not a major producer of any valuable resource, for a lot of it has been depleted by mis-management by dictators self interest on top of the peoples interest. If that was the case why the Dominican Republic's economy is not the same or even worse then that of haiti's, did you know that when Haiti occupied the future Dominican Republic the U.S. did not care at all of what was going on to dominicans when we were under Boyer's brutal dictatorship. But meanwhile the U.S. was trading with Haiti.

Cont., On top of that Boyer was planning to bring as many freed slaves from the U.S., but the plan failed because of budget restraints from both sides. Also because many black americans were not ready for the harsh realities of living in Haiti. Remember at that time Haiti included the whole island. Boyer eventually introduced 8,000 to 6,000 freed slaves, their descendants still live in Samana province modern day Dominican Republic. And that population consist's about 80% of the people of modern day Samana known as los americanos.

"My friend if you did not know?"

I was being sarcastic..As for rehashing Dominican history to me do not waste your time. I'm well aware of what transpired in my people's history. With that said you posed a very interesting question:Why is the Dominican Republic better off today than Haiti? One word: Race. The American occupation was extremely brutal in Haiti as it indeed was in the parts of DR where the African had a strong presence in the phenotype of the people. Is it any wonder that armed Dominican opposition to the US occupation was sustained only in the eastern provinces by the gavilleros where the majority of Dominicans are black or dark mullattoes? That's because the Marines were particularly brutal to the residents in that part of the country due to their race. The fact is that before anyone was occupied on Hispaniola Haiti had a higher standard of living and GDP than DR. The Americans leave and several years later the situation is reversed.
cont'd

cont'd
How is it that two countries on the same island and under the same tutelage can end up in such different levels of development? Where did the majority of American investment go to in the years that followed the occupation of both nations? Don't be so proud of the acheivements of the Dominican state in comparison to its neighbor. It's obvious for all who wish to see that one was favored over the other as a place to do business on the island and again I think it's because of race.

did you read the article I posted in its entirety, arcatype? Indeed a read the one you posted. No need to rehash it back to me but I doubt you read mine. Read it with an open mind and come back to me.

Cibaeno75? It's a simple answer, take a look back at haitian history no stability, the Dominican Republic with all it's flaws has stability. A country with a long tragectory of despotic goverments creates a tidal wave of unstabilty and economic uncertainty that's where chaos remains alive and well.

" A country with a long tragectory of despotic goverments "

Are you describing the Dominican Republic or Haiti? That description is applicable to both nations. Stability in DR was imposed by a foreign occupier as it was in Haiti by the way. It's just that the Americans had a very capable caretaker in the person of Trujillo to carry on what they initiated in DR. In any event had the Americans never intervened militarily on the island I think both nations would've been better off today then what they actually are. It would've forced both people to come to grips with certain issues on their own a long time ago.

Cibaeno75 Just to simplify matters, everything in this world is measured by who is creating and innovating. If you are not an active participant of that race then you are not considered a participant of the league of the know how's. A brief example if they find oil in a specific country let's say Guyana near its territorial waters, but the problem is Guyana does not have the capital or technical know how to extract the oil from the ocean so what are they to do. Most likely the discovery was made by people of a country like the U.S. or even Canada or perhaps Britain that have technical know how to extract the oil so their you go! who's going to make the big bucks in that find most likely the people that have the technological know how. Is it fair no, but that's the way things are done in the modern world. And in the case of most countries in the world they need the smart's of a few, so developement is a function of stability that begins with the status of a viable goverment.

Cont., Haiti has never enjoyed real stability.

"Haiti has never enjoyed real stability"

How do you explain, then, the fact that Haiti had a higher standard of living than DR all the way into the early 1940s? Obviously there were enough stabilising factors back then to make the country more prosperous then her neighbor (as a matter of fact haiti had a higher standing of living then puerto rico well into the 1930s. Believe it or not). Your just giving me an often-repeated soundbite that has no merit when one looks at the historical records.

Cibaeno75? First you dont sound like a real cibaeno, And the Dominican Republic was better economically then Haiti in the 1900's and beyond. You dont sound dominican at all, are you haitian. Cibaeno75? if you did not know! When Trujillo was in power the country paid it's external debt. The country did well in all sectors including in developement and education, i dont know what planet you come from saying such nonsense.

Cibaeno75?? If Haiti was doing so well, why did it derail itself.?????

Cibaeno75?? Noam Chomski is your guide to truth, who's your daddy Fidel Castro? Not for nothing i dont have anything against chomsky although hes not always correct. And in this issue he's not correct!

" Noam Chomski is your guide to truth, who's your daddy Fidel Castro? "

In that case debunk anything that you must in chomsky's paper, but do it with evidence from other sources rather than from personal opinion. I'll await to see what you come up with (this should be interesting). As for the Fidel comment, know that I am against any form of dictatorship wether it stem from the "right" or "left". In any event I don't subscribe to those terms, right or left. They are just terms people use to pigeonhole themselves in. I simply believe in right or wrong.

"If Haiti was doing so well, why did it derail itself.?"

That's a question that's beyond my scope to answer but I refuse to lay the blame squarely on the shoulders of Haiti's people per se. The reason for that is that as a result of foreign occupation we cannot ascertain with any certainty what would've been haiti's destiny had it not been for said intervention. There is enough evidence out there to demonstrate that the foreign interventions suffered by haiti during the twentieth century were detrimental to her development in many spheres. One can even make a case that haiti's current state is a result of US design. I'm not personally saying this, but indeed a case can be made from circumstantial evidence provided by the historical record.

Again, that haiti has never had some form of stability is a myth. Ask anyone in the know, all the way into the late 1940s Dominicans who couldn't get off the island and needed special medical care or wanted to purchase certain luxury items not availble in DR had to go to puerto principe to satisfy their needs. That alone should tell you the state of things on the island during the early twentieth century.

"You dont sound dominican at all, are you haitian. Cibaeno75? "

You are insulting me by asking such a stupid question. Why would a haitian call themselves a cibaeño? And indeed Trujillo did put the finances of the Republic in order but what does that have to do with haiti's economic shape in the early twentieth century? It's there's plenty of documentation out there to back up what I'm saying with regards to haiti. Seek and you shall find.

"First you dont sound like a real cibaeno,"

Si tu quiere te puedo mandai' pai' diablo en el dialecto de mis padres pero por que llegar a tanto? Deja de insultar con el privando en que eres mas dominicano que otro solamente por la razon que el o ella no comparte tu punto de vista. Te aseguro que yo soy bastante Dominicano y ademas soy un dominicano predilecto ya que el Señor lo encontro conveniente que yo fuese Cibaeño. Si quieres ver una foto de mi rostro es simple. Entre al foro aqui ya que yo a dejado varios comentarios. A la vera de mis comentarios usted vera el macho que escribio estas palabras. In all probability I'm dominican enough for the both of us, arcatype. The difference is that I don't equate being Dominican with Haitian bashing.

jemesouviens1804: Tell me more about Spain taking 21 Billion dollars from Haiti.... and please quote your sources so that i may check upon them

Cibaeno75 Understand that the haitian problem is strictly self inflicted, racism against the majority black population has created a divide between the mulatto minority elites. They have monopolized the countries economy to suite their interest, and im not saying that the U.S. did not have racial anomosity against the haitian's they clearly had it. But the same applies to the Dominican Republic and other Latin American countries, you said that the U.S. chose the Dominican Republic over Haiti as far as investment but you overlook at the fact that when the U.S. occupied Haiti in 1915, they built the infrastructure of Haiti they armed and trained and created Haiti's military and restored order from a very violent Coup d'etat where i believe the president was murdered and chopped up. The occupation lasted until 1934, the U.S. marines left the country intact just to see the infrastructure crumble again. Then the rest is history.....

"Understand that the haitian problem is strictly self inflicted"

Arcatype, we're going to have to agree to disagree. I refuse to beat a dead horse. Understand, however, that everything I've stated as factual here can be backed up with plenty of evidence. My opnions, of course, are my own. I'll leave you on this note:if you think anything major that happens on hispaniola. wether it be Haiti or dominican republic, happens without some form of US consent and/or input then you're delusional at best. You simply have no understanding of the relationship that certain nations have with the US if you think that the destinies of certain peoples are entirely in their hands.

Cont., Now why the Dominican Republic draws investors and Haiti does not, How many Coup d'etat's has the D.R. had in comparison to Haiti? How safe is Haiti in comparison to the D.R.? Which of the two countries is suffering an ecological disaster. Haiti is soon becoming like the sahara a desert, who's at fault The haitian goverment for being inept and not caring for it's people. Another problem with Haiti is the lack of water, a country without trees and water is called a failed state what's next 'SALVENSE QUIEN PUEDA' and who's getting screwed the Dominican Republic. And what should Haiti do, get your game straight because if the small mulatto elites in Haiti thinks that theirs no hell to pay they better be ready, no jobs for poor dominicans means no jobs for poor haitians. That means more marginalization for haitians also more deportations, until it reaches a climax of ethnic cleansing.

Cont., In behalf of dominicans towards haitians.

Cibaeno75 Sure blame the U.S. for all the problems of the world, all every single one?

"Cibaeno75 Sure blame the U.S. for all the problems of the world, all every single one?"

Putting words in my mouth arcatype.I never said that but if you think the US doesn't exert overwhelming influence over the life of certain nations then, again, you're delusional.

Hey, mr. arcatype, if you're doubting the overwhelming influence of the US on the island's affairs, then answer this: Why is it that, on every single electoral process ever held on our country since the fall of Trujillo, every single presidential candidate have had to arrange for a date with the US ambassador (with media coverage and all)? Why don't they ever meet with the European or Chinese ambassadors first?

Lautaro First economically the D.R. and Haiti cant compete at any level with the U.S. economy, so why would the U.S. want to exert power over two countries that are no threat to U.S. interest. They dont need us, the D.R. and Haiti needs the U.S. to purchase goods from. Not that the D.R. does not export goods to the U.S. also, but the U.S. economy is huge when you compare it to a small country. And what purpose will the U.S. gain in destroying the economy of a country that is not a threat to the U.S., i mean look at Iraq their you can see where the U.S. and the saudi's are in cohoots exerting power and influence for the black gold namely oil.

Cont., If your theory is correct then the U.S. must love illegal immigration from south of the border and beyond. The U.S. has become the worlds police, but it does not mean that when U.S. officials reach any foreign port they are there to ravage and loot the economies of developing countries.

The U.S. has become the worlds police, but it does not mean that when U.S. officials reach any foreign port they are there to ravage and loot the economies of developing countries.

lol. That's exactly what it means. The US wants developing countries to remain what they are: developing, and remain economically attached with them as it solidifies their interests in suppressing any sphere of influence that might potentially catch the eyes of these particular nations (China and Russia for example). The stronger a nation becomes economically, the stronger it becomes politically and therefore it will always be a potential threat that these countries will leave the American sphere of global influence. Hence, the antipathy the US has towards Chavez and his coalition of allies. Yes a country may progress and develop but as long as they do not surpass their "imposed" limits, the US won't supposedly intervene in affairs. Basically speaking, every country in the Western Hemisphere is either a

(cont'd) puppet or a country which harbors interest to the US yet attempts to break away from the US sphere, therefore ending a wide array of relations they potentially might have had, simply due to the fact that the US maintains such sheer influence, and can therefore economically or politically harm those countries they consider "dissident". LOL..I sound like a commie.

HAYkickyouintheshin I agree with some of the things you formulated, but first read some of my entries and then understand where i stand in the issue at hand. Simple if you are a country that lacks self reliance then you become just another developing country. For our nations to move forward first they got to become self reliant if that does not take effect, expect the same cause and effect.

arcatype I agree fully in your stating that BOTH nations of Hispaniola must adapt to a harsh world and must become self-reliant and self-sustaining in order to survive the outlook of the unfortunate yet very real circumstantial events that will ultimately destroy both countries without the implementation of necessary measures. Haiti, and the Dominican Republic will have to decrease dependence on the US and should strengthen relations amongst themselves for the betterment of the island (Our Ayiti Cherie and Bella Quisqueya). Both countries (All of Latin America in fact) should all strengthen relations with each other and not end relations with the US (because that wouldn't make sense) but merely reduce the direct economic influence that this world superpower holds over us. We can only do so much but remaining attached to the US like a deformed siamese twin will hurt us in our goal in becoming as independent yet progressed as we can possibly be. The US has helped us in some ways yet it

(cont'd) has hurt us in many other ways and so fraternal cooperation and intranational (amongst both countries) support along with priority on self-sustainability is the only way Hispaniola can regain its rightful ground.

jemesouviens1804:

I have read the article linked you posted before, and if you didn't notice the article is overly bias and over estimating DR capabilities. 100,000 men army? wtf. only a hatian playing his usual anti-dominican rhetoric would believe these accusations...

Interesting though, is the fact that we were urged to invade for the purpose further intervention by the west... and yet we didn't.

And by the way you still have not responded to my question about Spain taking 21 billions from Haiti...

The article is accurate and for your information was not written by a Haitian. secondly, I did not at all say that Spain took 21 billion from Haiti. I was implying the difference in economies that D.R. and Haiti had. I think you should reread my comment again. Maybe the reason you guys did not invade was because of the same reason you didn't invade in the 60's.

still we did not invade... thats my whole point

noam chomsky is laughable as an expert on anything except US baiting ,.....

he lives..