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I have been meaning to write an article about identity and oppression for a while, because I think that by exploring these concepts we can identify some aspects of our political system that maintain the public divided, uneducated, and complacent. When the word discrimination” is mentioned in the DR, most people REACT by shifting the issue to anti-Haitian movements. Let me start by saying, even if Haitian immigration were not vilify as THE MAJOR problem in the DR, or even if we didn’t have any Haitians in the at all, we would still suffer from discrimination and oppression along racial, gender, and sexual lines, among others.

So let me preempt all the comments shifting my words to

Anti-Dominicanism or pro-Haitianism or UN-Collaborator, by saying that my thoughts and comments are aimed to highlight an oppressively uneven distribution of resources, the lack of incorporation of the public in public decisionmaking processes, and some mechanisms used to hide these flaws in our political system and manufacture an oppressive identity. I promise I’ll try to keep the theory to a minimum, but will respond with more info if questions are posted.

With that said, let me start.

One of the principal functions of “Culture” is that it characterizes bodies, music, art, accents, jobs, sexuality, et cetera, into a value-laden hierarchical continuum that tells us what is good from what is bad; what is ugly from what is sublime; what is licit from what is not. Different mechanisms are used to create and support these hierarchies – the media, music, religion, myths, schools, history… e.g. why are actors and models used in the advertisement in the DR mostly, if not altogether, white? Why do we consider the Spanish or Argentine accent more educated? To cut to the chase, why do we admire the “European” and slander the non-white? In the Centro Leon in Santiago, there is a wonderful exhibition on Dominican ancestry. It is divided into two post-Taino halves: first, one sees things we derived from the Spaniards. These artifacts are brightly lit and highly celebrated. The second half of the exhibition is walled-off, and the wall has a few holes people can look through and see an extensive collection of artifacts, foods, and customs we inherited from our African ancestors. The exhibition is clear in its message: Dominican society celebrates the “European” and hides the “African”. This is also evident from our language – “improving the race”; “good hair” versus “bad hair”; and so on.

People’s identities are shaped by interaction with these cultural hierarchies. People can suffer damage when the society around them mirrors back to them a confining or demeaning picture of themselves. People internalize “recognized images” which present an obstacle to the advancement of minority groups and provide an unfair advantage to those who are fortunate to be born, by mistake, into the dominant group. This self-depreciation, lack of self-respect, low self-esteem, this negative recognition is a form of oppression. It leads, in the words of Charles Taylor, to a “crippling self-hatred.”

In Justice and the Politics of Difference, Marion Iris Young (1990) provides an interesting definition of “Oppression.” She argues, in chapter 2, that oppression has five faces: “Exploitation, marginalization, powerlessness, cultural imperialism, and violence.” For brevity’s sake, I’ll briefly touch on each and leave it up to the readers to determine if any of these mechanisms are present in the Dominican culture.

Exploitation is the expropriation of surplus value by one group by another. In democracies it is structurally enacted and supported by “social rules about what work is, who does what for whom, how work is compensated, and the social process by which the results of work are appropriated operate to enact relations of power and inequality. These relations are produced and reproduced through a systematic process in which the energies of the have-nots are continuously expended to maintain and augment the power, status, and wealth of the Haves.”

Marginalization occurs when people are systematically excluded, either willfully or through some weeding “barriers”, from the labor market. Marginalized people are subject to severe deprivation and even extermination. Additionally, because of their dependant position, they are excluded from or barely included in public decision making process and are subject to intrusive rules and oversight.

Powerlessness includes “inhibition in the development of one’s capacities, lack of decisionmaking power in one’s working life, and exposure to disrespectful treatment because of the status one occupies.” A good example is the freedom enjoyed by professional workers, while “blue-collar” workers are subject to all kinds of oversight mechanisms.

Cultural Imperialism means that the “dominant group” in a society renders their meaning, views, values, and overall experience as the “natural” or “legitimate,” while rendering all other groups invisible and their experience unnatural, foreign, illicit, or even evil. “Cultural imperialism involves the universalization of a dominant group’s experience and culture, and its establishment as the norm” These groups may dominate or have primary access to the means of communication and portray their views as dominant through these channels. “Since only the dominant group’s cultural expressions receive wide dissemination, their cultural expressions becomes the normal, or the universal.” The dominant group reinforces its position by labeling other cultures as “the other”, inferior, uncultured, ordinary, and deviant. The culturally dominated are rendered invisible and at the same time labeled inferior. Stereotypes of dominated groups are so prevalent that they are uncontested, internalized, and portray members of oppressed groups as non-individuals. The only legitimate individuals are those who belong to the dominant group. “This, then, is the injustice of cultural imperialism: that the oppressed group’s own experience and interpretation of social life finds little expression that touches the dominant culture, while that same culture imposes on the oppressed group its experience and interpretation or social life.”

Violence is a social practice, and approaches legitimacy, when it is tolerated. Light punishment of violence toward women, homosexuals, kids, immigrants, minorities, the poor, mentally-ill, and other oppressed groups is a form of sanctioned oppression.

The State is not, in and of itself, the sole perpetrator of these oppressive practices, but, as I explained a few weeks ago, institutions are very powerful in shaping our culture. The state can endeavor to create institutions to reach out to traditionally marginalized population and help “level the playing field.” In South Africa and the

U.S., for example, there are laws that require banks to invest in traditionally marginalized communities. That is, the State has recognized that banks will not invest in poor communities, and that they need to be compelled to do so. These policies have generated jobs in urban and rural areas and have helped traditionally depressed communities become more economically active.

But actually, the uneven distribution of resources should only be the beginning of our analysis. We should question the processes which led to such skewed distribution and work to correct them. To that end, I propose that it is the lack of inclusiveness of the public in public-decisionmaking processes that has led to our government adopting such regressive programs that continuously transfer resources to the rich and maintain the middle and poor classes in a desperate situation.

Recognizing differences among groups in the DR is a step that may lead to increased participation and may help address the huge resource inequalities present in the DR. The lack of recognition of difference – the portrayal that there is no difference among Dominicans – masks the huge exclusion of minorities, women, homosexual, and other oppressed groups from positions of power. The rhetoric of “One Dominican identity” is a mechanism of oppression and exclusion, not unity.

This article is a call to recognize that discrimination and oppression exists in the DR, and that it includes and is not limited to Haitian immigrants. It is a call to be aware of the oppressiveness of the imposition of only one Dominican culture. The reality is that the DR is a multi-class, multi-ethnic, multi-racial, multi-religious, multi-sexual, multi-lingual society. We are more than just the white models used in advertisements. We are more than just baseball players.

We are more than cheap labor. We are strong women, men, gays, black, white, Asian and everything in between. By masking these differences, we mask who we are, oppress ourselves, and support the same mechanisms that we criticize which demobilize people from political participation.

In addition, this article is a challenge to recognize that we may be oppressing others through our actions, words, or inaction. People like to claim that they are oppressed, but seldom do they like to recognize that they may also be oppressing others sexually, racially, or religiously. We must strive to truly recognize and appreciate the differences between people and reject the stereotypes conveyed by the dominant groups.

Misrecognition is a form of oppression, and a “colorblind” policies and rhetoric are political mechanisms to mask inequality and placate/demobilize the population from demanding change.

Written by: by Edward D. Gonzalez-Acosta, The New School for Social Research
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197 comment(s)
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Written by: jemesouviens1804, 2 Jan 2008 3:36 PM
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
Well...You hit the nail on the head. There's defenitely discrimination in the D.R. Just the the same way there's discrimination in Haiti, United States, Bangladesh, and the little island nation in the south-pacific that no one knows about. As far as the "hiding" of African ancestry in the D.R., i believe this problem relates with the Anti-Haitian issue. If things were reversed and most Haitians were 90 percent White/Mulatto, 10 percent black, and were walking into clubs in Santo Domingo throwing pesos in the air like they were Saudi Arabians, this article wouldn't even exist.
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Written by: Lautaro, 2 Jan 2008 4:20 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Of all the cases of violence/discrimination that you mentioned above, mr. Gonzalez, I think that the one which requires the most attention, not only in the DR but also in Haiti, is the one practiced against women. Examples of this are: 1- The avoidance by the Catholic Church and other conservative sectors of any serious debate about the abortion subject at the political level, because they think that women should not have the right to decide what to do with their bodies, and 2- The irresponsible manner in which the judicial system treats the cases of violence against women, and what is worse, the violent are widely celebrated by society for their acts of "manliness", which serves to further encourage a future reenactment of their criminal deeds. This patriarchalism on the part of dominican society is, in my opinion, one of the main reasons that explains why, even to this day, trujillismo is still a force to be reckoned with.
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Written by: Lautaro, 2 Jan 2008 5:22 PM
From: Dominican Republic
I'm not implying with this for the other cases not to be adressed, it's just that, man, there isn't a single week on the whole year without a case being reported of a man shooting, beating or maiming a woman to death on this country!!!
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Written by: baldoria23, 3 Jan 2008 10:27 AM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera, M.T.S.
I understand, and I agree with, what you meant Lautaro. SOme forms of oppression tend to attract more attention than others, but all types of discriminations are oppressive, divisive, and an instrument to manipulate the public. For example, in the U.S. people (republicans) call Hillary Clinton a "B*tch" all the time; but no one dares call Obama a "N*gg*r". Why is this the case? Why is it o.k. to call women names, but not Afri-Amer? It is not o.k. to do either. We must call out and reject any instance of oppression and discrimination, if we want to change our society and create a truly inclusive society.

And James, yes the Haitian discrimination helps justify our under appreciation of our African roots, but my point is even without the presence of a Haitians in the Dominican psche, the dominant group would still impose a manufactured identity that is intended NOT TO UNITE, but to identify who is "acceptable"; e.g. the exclusion of non-whites from some social settings/clubs.
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Written by: JabaoHaitian, 3 Jan 2008 11:49 AM
From: Haiti
Mr. Gonzalez,

I commend you for a well thought out article and I think the problem globally was/is due to colonialism how it effected our psyche. In the americas & ww there is a hierarchy where les blancs are at the top of the totem pole and it trickles down to les noirs which are at the bottom of the totem pole. Name one country in the americas where the white (or casi blanco) minority of that group doesn't control the wealth and considered at the top. In a society where phrases such as "trabajo como un negro para vivir como un blanco" is accepted as the norm. Or in south america where one hear phrases such as "no ser tan indígena" which in the DR would be considered a compliment. Even my beloved country has issues and discriminates towards the majority. I think the solution is to re-educate starting with the youth at an early age to appreciate all parts of socity indigenous,african & european without bias. the big issue 4 dominicans is if they identify with their african.
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Written by: JabaoHaitian, 3 Jan 2008 12:03 PM
From: Haiti
continued...culture than they feel they are embracing haitain which in your psyche equals african. Now this is where we as haitian nationals & dominican nationals need to draw the line without one over shadowing the other. Most important are women's rights. Society has created a machismo attitude where women are seen as ama de casa "housekeeper" and are assistants which is a step up. But this is where my fear of the warmth and charmful women in our society will be drafted for the over powerful women that gives orders and makes our lives miserable. Chile & Argentina have taken a leap in the americas let's hope others will follow this positive but uncertain trend....Besides, my philosphy has been behind or (al lado) a strong man there is a stronger woman pulling the strings.
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Written by: Lautaro, 3 Jan 2008 1:26 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Along with reeducation of the masses, what the progressive movements needs to do, mr. jabao, is to somehow rescue the freedom of press from the captivity that it's currently suffering at the hands of corporate interests, because the press is the main vehicle of education of the masses, and a vehicle which, unlike school system, it's always in motion, and their truths (and lies) are better retained by the people than any school lecture.
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Written by: JabaoHaitian, 3 Jan 2008 2:15 PM
From: Haiti
Lautaro,

I concur that freedom of press "parler librement" have been in bondage by corporate business sectors to keep the blinds on the majority of the mass but it is up to each individual to uplift themselves & seek the truth. Besides, I think the religion sectors in both of our societies have more power than they should rather they should play a role in building the bridge between the have and have nots but reality is they are to high up to see what the everyday life is on the battle ground(los barrios) but always have an opinion on how things should be done. The worst thing is people listen rather than digest "la palabra" to see if it's justified. A wise man once told me "el pobre suplica y el rico insulta".
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Written by: Lautaro, 3 Jan 2008 2:30 PM
From: Dominican Republic
On recent years, there have been an increase on the numbers of people siding with the different protestant churches, mr. Jabao. They, unlike the Catholic establishment, are quite willing (and working) to help both countries to mend their wounds. This phenomenon is, at least from my point of view, a sign that things might start to change in Haiti/DR relations. The only drawback that the different protestant churches have in my estimation is their militant support of the Catholic POV on the therapeutic abortion debate. Also one can't underestimate the militant role that the Company of Jesus (or jesuits, as they're more commonly known) have played in the fight for the rights of the haitian inmigrants and their descendants both within and outside the Catholic Church.
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Written by: JabaoHaitian, 3 Jan 2008 4:05 PM
From: Haiti
Monsieur Lautaro

I share the same POV regarding the decrease of followers in the Catholic establishment and literally in all latin america besides Mejico. As the Mr. Gonzalez mentions when someone utters the word "discrimination" one quickly ponder on the domínico-haitiana relationship. There are factors regarding this subject that would still permeate in the domincan society without the discrimination against my compatriots. Each individual must be held accountable for his/her actions and struggle to overcome the constant pyschological damage thru centuries of oppression and humiliation. When our society becomes tolerate and depict the majority in a positve light on the tube and other medias maybe that negative seed of discrimination will disperse itself and one will judge base on character rather than the colour of thy skin. Poco a Poco Petit a Petit with mediums such as this one the light shall beam thru the darkness and awaken the dorment minds of our deadizens.
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Written by: lcabrera, 4 Jan 2008 11:56 AM
From: United States
You got that right Jemesouviens!
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Written by: dreadlocks, 4 Jan 2008 12:01 PM
From: United States
welcome back, Jabao. i see you were off on holiday hiatus. just a short anecdote to buttress the usual wonderfully articulated ideas of Baldoria. a little over a year ago ,i went into a local colmado( yes, Jabao), to buy a piece of cheese and a bottle of soda; 2 items. two Canadian ladies were roaming the aisles selecting their items, and i arrived at the cashier in a split instant before they did. the cashier had already rang up the soda on the register, when the owner of the colmado instructed her to stop, erase the purchase ,and attend to the white ladies first. i was taken aback initially, but i realised what had happened, and managed to smile about the issue. you see, two things happened. firstly, the Canadians could quite easily have indicated to the cashier to continue with me; after all, they were on holiday, and time was not that critical. but they concurred with his decision, reinforcing in the minds of all who witnessed the event that this is the way things should be.
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Written by: dreadlocks, 4 Jan 2008 12:11 PM
From: United States
the Dominican colmado owner, on the other hand, has already had his psyche corrupted. he already knows what the pecking order should be. i am a light -skinned black man, and i wonder what would have happened if the principals in this affair had been myself and a very dark skinned Dominican or Haitian. would he have instructed the cashier to serve me first, in preference to the darker man? as i have posted on many occasions, it is sad to see the deleterious effects that colonialism has had upon the minds of our people, wherein we see others as being congenitally better than we are, simply because their skin is lighter and their noses are straight. i watch in dismay when i see europeans and north americans, some of little or no merit whatsoever, strutting around the country as if they were gods. most of these people are rejects from their native societies, a pestilence upon their parents and friends. they come here and throw their bombast around, and Dominicans will not put them in
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Written by: dreadlocks, 4 Jan 2008 12:12 PM
From: United States
their places, because they think that they would be overstepping their bounds. we can only hope that with the passage of time, these maladies will be corrected
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Written by: jemesouviens1804, 4 Jan 2008 4:45 PM
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
Thank you Icabrera....Im glad you see my point of view.
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Written by: JabaoHaitian, 4 Jan 2008 5:27 PM
From: Haiti
Dread,

Thank you for remembering me..I am glad to read you again. Your story is nothing new and sadly this occurred because in the owners mind(brain washed) knew the hierarchy and did what to him is the just thing, serve blanco first and the rest comes after. Can't blame him though but the canucks that come from a so called unbias society should've corrected this as you mentioned but did not..That says alot.. I say if it wasn't for the laws in north america that punishes(lawsuit) individuals/institutions these sad phenomenons would happen in n. america.

But I blame you for not having those canadians pay for you stuff as well..jejej. How did you play it off.? Did u say anything? Nothing like humiliate someone that should know better. You should see the faces I get when I tell them i'm haitian. I my Gosh he speaks english like us..lol...and he is light skin..im almost white in the DR though.lol.. I have many stories that are similar..I will write one when i get a chance.
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Written by: ny4life, 7 Jan 2008 12:59 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
I'm glad you realize it's a colonial problem that has infected the world not just DR. Separating DR is not fair, I'm pretty sure if I were in Haiti as a light-skinned Dominican or American, I would be catered to better than your typical dark-skinned Haitian. You would look at the light skin man and think he is more wealthy and powerful than the dark-skin Haitian. That's a product colonisim where you cater to the white skin and provide special treatment. That exist on Hispanola, Africa, South America, and any other less developed part of the world where education is lacking and igornace still prevails. Education is the way to combat this disease that plagues the colonial socities of the world. Not everyone within these thinks that way but the ignorant and less educated still do. All I'm saying is that Haiti has the same problem and it's not right to single out Dominicans.
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Written by: baldoria23, 7 Jan 2008 1:31 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera, M.T.S.
The "colonial" mentality is far from unique to DR. Education is NOT the silver bullet, b/c the education sys that we have in DR go to support the status-quo which center on the achievements of the dominant group, and legitimate the hierarchical system. Education, as is, is another tool that support the hegemony (which is the key term) of those in power. For example, feminist theorists have done an excellent job of highlighting the absence of women in history - look @ Joan Scott - when it is reasonable to expect women to play a significant role. Ashish Nandy's "The Intimate Enemy" is an excellent book of how colonial rule in India stripped the colonized of their "self", and aggrandized the British. In that situation, the solution was to strive to become more British, without ever being able to achieve such status. The oppressed want to become more like the oppressor, and therefore recreating and supporting the hierarchical, oppressive system.
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Written by: baldoria23, 7 Jan 2008 1:39 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera, M.T.S.
I propose that this is part of what happens when members of an oppressed group try to become more like the "oppressors" by oppressing members of other oppressed groups that may be lower on the hierarchy than them: poor men oppressed and women; poor heterosexuals deride gays; poor put down immigrants; and so on. Essentially, to feel more empowered, there is a vicious cycle of oppression and discrimination. The only solution to break the cycle is a pedagogy that critiques and rejects the single identity that is portrayed as the "normal" the "good"; a philosophy that recognizes the legitimacy of different groups, and calls for a policy of inclusiveness and equal human, economic, social, and political rights. This can only be accomplished by a political system that incorporates the people in the decision making process, instead of shutting them out.
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Written by: ny4life, 7 Jan 2008 1:39 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
Education, will only allow you to understand that there is a mentality as we have described as "colonial". It takes an educated person to understand the origins of such attitude and understand how it divides people by status based on skin color. With out this understanding you are ignorant for not knowing there is a problem and continuing to think in such discriminatory ways.
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Written by: JabaoHaitian, 7 Jan 2008 9:41 PM
From: Haiti
NY4life, read Bladoria's post again. As education will not magically erase century old practices of inferior complex and hierarchy based on skin tone. As I mention DR isn't the only country facing this dilemma across the border we have our own issuesbased on skin tone. but it is institutionalised in the DR thru the media. When have you seen a beautiful morena promoting the country or a moreno broadcasting el paraiso rather to realize these fantasies one has a need to put a blanco/a in the forefront. What's worse is the mass accept it and kind want this image as well as if the know deep inside they aren't worthy. We all no after that giving birth the first thing one notice is if el nino salio blanco or not. God forbid one of Josefina's kids came out black but if rubio como la mantequilla then he is the pride of the family. I think we have to re-educate our society ,both, on what is considered beauty.
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Written by: JabaoHaitian, 7 Jan 2008 9:56 PM
From: Haiti
Phrases such as "quiero una blanquita bonita. me da lo mismo un blanco que un maldito negro o ei negro e’comi’a ‘e puerco”. Mejorar la raza is an anthem and slogan embedded in young kids to marry lighter which means success in life and sign of wealth and better social status. I can go on and on but I think I would run out of characters. Ny4life, being light skin in haiti would get you some special treatment but if you open your mouth sounding like a tiguere del barrio you will suddenly be looked down upon and left alone. One main one I cant for get..looking for a job and one sees in the add..buscando gente con buena presencia..Hmm????? Now el preito knows not to even bother since it is an unwritten rule that they are looking for blanquitos.. Oh and this one dos morenos are going at it offending each other but one wants to strike a final blow and calls el otro moreno un maidito haitiano..all war breaks out....
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Written by: ny4life, 8 Jan 2008 1:19 AM
From: United States, New York, NY
Hey Jabao,

En Haiti es lo mismo entre los blancos. White is king brother! Not that it's right but that's the way the world is run. Sad but true. In Haiti es lo mismo. The fact that DR is more powerful than Haiti, the situation is blown out of proportion pero en Haiti es lo mismo.
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Written by: Lautaro, 8 Jan 2008 10:09 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Correct me if I'm wrong, mr. ny4life, but : Are you trying to say that, once the lack of education is out of the way, the matter of racism would be one of personal choice? I'm saying this because, from my estimation, no matter how racist the education a people receive might be, the attitude that he/she ends up having could, in some cases, run counter to that. An example of this is father Christopher Hartley himself. My reason for saying this is that, in my estimation, notwithstanding the values of his aristocratic english education, he ended up taking the missionary way, and that truly was a step, considering that, racism and classism are more embedded in british society than it will ever be in the DR, because the assumptions of white supremacy (given its more than succesful imperial past) have never been truly discussed in the UK, the only step in that way being the abolition societies, and even then, they only discussed the fate of africans and not the evils of colonialism.
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Written by: JabaoHaitian, 8 Jan 2008 1:31 PM
From: Haiti
N4life, I will reiterate that inferior complex due to colonialism is something Haitians face and other latin american countries as well. This article from my understanding isn't about solely blame the dominicans but a testimony of the institutionalise "white is right and if black step back" discrimination without even mentioning the haitian factor. My brother read your last post again. To my understand of english you are cleary saying "well it isn't right but the white man is king so lets all try to be like him." Im sure white people reading this are baffled by such comments. It's that negative seed embedded in dominican society (others too) that appears to stand out. Ok so you live in NYC and you know damn will in america 96% of dominicans are not white and to make a safety net let's call a group of people latino which isn't a damn race. thank god or else the check box with the infamous "afro" would be the last option. If I agreed with your way of thinking.
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Written by: Lautaro, 8 Jan 2008 1:48 PM
From: Dominican Republic
The elites are no fools, mr. Jabao, if they dared apply the one drop rule here, they'll be smaller in numbers than they already are. In the caste system of colonial Spanish America, there was no barrier for interracial mating while, at the same time, a racial hierarchy operated, combined with the Iberian purity of blood rules. As a result, the status of a mixed-race person would be determined by the proportion of "white blood" with elaborate names classifying the combinations of black, Amerindian and white. Inverse from the above said system, small drops of white blood was enough to position a person above "pure" non-whites. Furthermore, racial caste did not only depend on ancestry or skin color but also could be risen or lowered by the person's economical fortune. After the abolition of slavery and Latin American independence, the caste divisions were blurred into wider groups. (cont...)

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Written by: Lautaro, 8 Jan 2008 1:48 PM
From: Dominican Republic
In December, 2002 the Washington Post ran a story on the one drop theory. In the reporter's opinion: "Someone with Sidney Poitier's deep chocolate complexion would be considered white if his hair were straight and he made a living in a profession. That might not seem so odd, Brazilians say, when you consider that the fair-complexioned actresses Rashida Jones of the television show "Boston Public" and Lena Horne are identified as black in the United States." It has always marveled me that dominican society are only willing to copy american standards up to a certain point. Apparently, the one drop rule is the one place where not even the elites are willing to go.
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Written by: ny4life, 8 Jan 2008 2:00 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
Jabao,
I didn't say let's try to be like anybody but the truth is that the power in the world lies in the hands of those with lighter skin and you as a Haitian should know this since your country is mostly of black descendent. I'm not condoning this at all but it is the truth. It's sad and unfortunate that his the case but it's known way that the plight of Haiti has to do with the world not accepting the first totally Black liberated Republic. Blacks and Latino's especially in the U.S. fight for the same rights as the white elite. Latino is a race, it's a combination of many influences such as european, taino, and black. Some type of European influence is involved in order to be a Latino. You are right that 96% of Dominicans are not white, Dominicans are not white, they are breed of European, African, and Taino. That's why we are lighter skinned than Haitians. Dominicans have more European influence in our society which makes us Latino and that's the truth.
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Written by: ny4life, 8 Jan 2008 2:02 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
Not every Dominican has black roots and if you do not many are purely Black like Haitians. Haiti on the other hand is dominiated by it's African roots as the majority are purely Black. DR definitely has black influences, it's dumb to say otherwise, as it's very present in our everyday lifes.
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Written by: JabaoHaitian, 8 Jan 2008 2:09 PM
From: Haiti
continued..you and I would have to live with the fact that we are not equal (not kings) in this world but lower hierarchies that has to lament about not being born white. Look deep into the mirror my brother..your characteristic features are less than in this world so one must chase a lighter skin to improve your race. So if X dominican marries into Y dark skin family then accord to the status quo it = a degrading the race. Now you live outside of the cob web and still think the way you do entonces imagínate el pensamiento de los dominicanos en la R.D. No ombe, espero q' cambies tu forma de pensar. Tienes q' echar la sangre de los negros pa'lante porque sin ellos no hay merengue , no hay el accento dominicano(caribbean), no hay mujeres con las nalgas bein redondas etc. Acknowledging or even identifying with that part of dominican roots doesn't take anything away nor make your society lesser than & it doesn't make you Haitian if that makes u feel better.
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Written by: JabaoHaitian, 8 Jan 2008 2:23 PM
From: Haiti
NY4life, so you think latino is a race. It's obvious you've been in the USA a long time. It's just a way to put a group of spanish speaking people under one umbrella. There isn't no such thing is a latin race. Speak in latin to me since I still remember some words from my days studying it in haiti. You can run all you want to but the truth shall set you free. Dude haiti is a majority black country just like the DR is majority black country although many of the negros have mixed whether with a european which latter had mulattos mixing with negros and back and forth. Your misconception of haitians is what makes dominicans in total shock when they see a haitian of my colour or even light skin. Every hue that you have in the DR you'll find it in Haiti. Remember Trujillo imported whites for europe to the cibao region and although many left they served trujillo's puprose of whitening the country. Imagine if this didn't happen. There would be more greñitas at the hair salons:).
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Written by: baldoria23, 8 Jan 2008 2:32 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera, M.T.S.
Miscegenation is an explicit strategy adopted to enforce a single identity and sustain and mask the huge inequalities that exist today. What do I mean by that? Well, if you are oppressed, and there is a way for you to improve your situation or that of your children, then you are less likely to revolt. So “mejorando la raza” was allowed. Furthermore, a few non-whites are allowed to move up the social-econ latter, to show that it is possible to improve your situation in life, only if you "follow the rules." But the truth of the matter is that all these things are ways to keep the public docile.

To ensure the reduction/rejection of the “less-valued” identity, a complex network of mechanisms are used to promote the “dominant” culture, to tarnish and vilify “the other.” This goes beyond race and xenophobia, this goes to a society based on oppression of those who do not or cannot, fit the ideal image – women, gays, poor, blacks, (black)migrants.

Think beyond the oppression of Haitian
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Written by: JabaoHaitian, 8 Jan 2008 2:34 PM
From: Haiti
Ny4life, the dominicans that don't have black roots are/were immigrants that never mingled with the mass which would of tarnish their prestigous status.(elites, that don't need to take yola or live in NYC) Ok ,ya, I dont want to get in the colour issue too much but when I took my colombian friends to the DR with me they were like damn..this country looks like Buenaventura..the black region of Colombia...I took them to the great casi white hope of the DR and they were laughing that Santiago was considered the whitest in the DR. Besides, they were making fun of the accent & they didn't see the difference between haitians and dominicans which got me upset..jajjaja. Now again I can careless how you nor any dominican define their side of the island but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what influences the DR the most..
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Written by: ny4life, 8 Jan 2008 2:38 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
Jabao,

I mispoke, latino is not a race but an ethnicity. Latino's tend to choose black or white as race depending on skin color and granted they have the right to do so. Latin is the root language of spanish, french, portugues, romanian, and others. So if you speak any of these and were born out side these countries and are descendents of these people than you are considered Latin-American.

We have different view on things and you just have respect it.
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Written by: ny4life, 8 Jan 2008 2:43 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
You don't care how we think but you are here everyday bashing DOminicans. You gotta be kidding me man. Sak pase? jajajaja..
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Written by: Lautaro, 8 Jan 2008 2:48 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Maybe if you'll have taken them to La Vega, Constanza, Jarabacoa or Las Terrenas they would have felt satisfied, mr. Jabao. :-)
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Written by: JabaoHaitian, 8 Jan 2008 2:57 PM
From: Haiti
Ny4life,

By know way I am bashing dominicans..Why is it when I Haitian speaks openly whether going against the grain of how dominican feel it is considered bashing. You just don't know the love I have for the DR and consider it my 2nd home. For your FYI, my wife is domincan and I improved her race(she is a light brown skin but middle class family and I am very light people think Im puerto rican) we met at PUCMM. Now imagine me a middle class haitian telling my family im getting engage to a dominican. First thing that came out of their lip was "Oh gosh he is marrying a cuero". I had to convince my family that she was NOT a typical domincan(haitian stereotype that all dominican women are hookers and the men theives). And she spoke proper spanish and also spoke french/english, family came from a good catholic background and father had his own business which is a good network for our family in the DR. I am here to dialogue in a respectful but honest fashion with being PC.
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Written by: Lautaro, 8 Jan 2008 3:06 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Mr. Jabao, I have a question: Are the well-to-do families on Haiti only living on Petionville and Kenscoff? I'm asking this because this is the latest stereotype that I have heard of lately.
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Written by: ny4life, 8 Jan 2008 3:11 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
Here you go again always putting Haiti up and bringing DR down. Showing your true colors. You could careless about DR and will always portray Haiti as being better and the little guy everything picks on. You have a complex my friend. I respect your beliefs but they are one sided.
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Written by: JabaoHaitian, 8 Jan 2008 3:13 PM
From: Haiti
Lautaro, you are probably right but I wasn't there to show them where one can find the whitest people in the DR.jajja. I will take them next time I go but they couldn't stop laughing at the accent and were in culture shock.. we met a colombian down there and they asked me what on earth would a colombian want in the DR. I told them the truth..most delinquents using the island as a transhipment for their export and it aint coffee.jjaja they stopped making jokes. Just so happen when we were going to haiti on caribetour 4 colombians where going back to haiti for God knows what. My Pablo Escobar jokes were infinite...jajajja. If any colombians reading this..take it in good stride.Oiga, Colombia es pasion..

Petion Ville isn't what it used to be but still is Le p'tit Paris of Haiti....Kenscoff is still cool and haven't had to much changes..Caribetour goes straight to Petion Ville.
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Written by: Lautaro, 8 Jan 2008 3:23 PM
From: Dominican Republic
They should not complaint, because, if my mind doesn't betray me, I remember that the past government put them (the Colombians) on the list of foreigners which don't require visas to enter the country. :-)
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Written by: JabaoHaitian, 8 Jan 2008 3:47 PM
From: Haiti
NY4life, Dio' mio que te pasa broder..How's that a la dom-york style. To be frank , u will never understand and it will never dawn on you haitians are diversified group of people not braceros looking for a better life in the DR..t'es fou..lol.... I can't blame you due to your upbringing and living in NYC..gosh, I abhor that third world place in the USA. You are thinking too much about haitian vs dominican rather than sit back and learn of our differences and stereotypes so the next generation can live in harmony. Only if you knew the stereotypes we have about your people but I respect your opinion and hope take time to reflect about your own personal prejudice and other factors which keep both nations at each others neck. I would like to add one thing which I hope sticks with you 4 the rest of your life..Pro-haitian doesn't mean anti-dominican nor vice versa..All we have to do is look for the equalibrium. Besides, my kids are mitad dominicanos unfortunately..just kidding :)
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Written by: Lautaro, 8 Jan 2008 4:14 PM
From: Dominican Republic
It shows that some people just can't live without having a "cuco" to blow off their hate and fear. I think that it's called the "tirarle piedra a los chiquitos" syndrome, mr. Jabao. :-)
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Written by: lcabrera, 8 Jan 2008 5:09 PM
From: United States
Hey JabaoHaitian I agree with you man, I am totally Dominican and let me tell you that there are a lot of Dominicans living in the States and elsewhere out of the Dominican Republic that deny their nationality, I personally have met Dominicans like that and it really saddened me that a lot of my people ain't proud of their origen and the reason are because we are a poor country and 'cause the majority of us are black. It's like jemesouviens said on his comment, if Haitians were WHITE with green eyes, then the story would be totally different. I am dominican from root and I AM DAMN PROUD OF BEING DOMINICAN. for me we Dominicans and Haitians should treat each other like brother and sister.

But honestly I think this world is already full of souls with **** on their heart and brain, so I just leave it to God to do a miracle.
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Written by: ny4life, 8 Jan 2008 8:18 PM
From: United States, New York, NY
Eh Pa'lante que vamos! I'm glad Jabao you have learn some Dominican Spanish.
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Written by: FranktheTank, 11 Jan 2008 7:46 AM
From: United Kingdom
Very interesting, Mr. Acosta, your right, discrimination does exists in the DR. (I’ll try to get to elephant in the room Haitian Migration into the Dr). In the DR, as in every country, the dominant group, excerpts it’s influence over the rest of population. In the US, we have the luxury of “protected status” to safeguard our rights from encroachment by the majority. Sadly, the Dr is not ready for this luxury; in the DR, people can barely sustain themselves, let alone worry about the plight of (foreign)people, that are more underprivileged they are.(Poor) Dominicans don’t have access to basic services, decent housing, reliable justice system & transportation; the government doesn’t care about them, until its election time. This subclass is marginalized ,by every one, and now that NGOs are focusing on the Haitians, within DR borders, who is going to stand up for them(dominicans). The thing gets me, Haitians seem to more organized in the DR, than in Haiti.
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Written by: FranktheTank, 11 Jan 2008 7:48 AM
From: United Kingdom
It ok for upper class Haitians to completely exploit they’re own people but when they run away from the mess(so called South to South migrations),everyone and their mother stands up tries to fight for the poor. While I agree, that Dominicans don’t give enough respect to their African ancestors I think its directly related to the our independence movement 1840s(some of the reasons would not be acceptable in today’s world)but its also way to complex a subject to be argued on the internet. On another note, scarcity, a fundamental principal of “the dismal science” is becoming a very real problem in the DR,(as already is in Haiti).
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Written by: FranktheTank, 11 Jan 2008 8:00 AM
From: United Kingdom
Jabao, Jabao, Jabao do you have any more condescending Jokes for us to read(lol). Man, we know your light skinned? I’m sorry! but you mention it, way to much, it adds nothing to your argument(I have met many White Haitians). I also know stereotypes, these stereotypes shed a negative light on Haitians and jokes as well, but I have too much respect for the Haitian people write such things. But I’ll give you a taste (lol). How do you make “little Haiti” a safer neighborhood? You rename it “little Bagdad “. Just a little south Florida Humor lol(currently in London)
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Written by: JOHNUSA This user is banned, 12 Jan 2008 11:21 PM
From: United States
We are all God's children. Sop the hate and embrace love. Good will always overcome evil.
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Written by: greenwave, 21 Jan 2008 4:55 PM
From: Dominican Republic
The author forgot to include history in his analysis. The author ignored the effect of the invasions of 1801, 1805, 1822-1844, 1845, 1849 and 1855. Furthermore, the author forgot that under Ulysses Hereaux, the towns of San Rafael, San Miguel de la Atalaya, Hinchas and Las Caobas were sold illegaly to Haiti. The author also left out that Haiti was annexing (commercially ) the province of Dajabon in 1937 (violating the border treaty signed in 1929). Recall that under Boyer, the Haitians did their best to africanize DR by importing more than 8,000 africanamericans to DR and placing them in Samana. The haitians either killed or expelled the light skin population in DR from 1822-1843 (the elite). And now we have 1.1 million illegal Haitians in DR. With that history in perspective, we have the right to reject anything that resembles Haiti or its decendents. The prohaitians betrayed STO DGO when Pierrot invaded DR in 1849 by not taking arms against the Haitians.It is time to rescue
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Written by: greenwave, 21 Jan 2008 5:05 PM
From: Dominican Republic
MATERNIDAD LA ALTAGRACIAEl 22% de los nacimientos son de madres haitianas Monday, January 21, 2008
Doris Pantaleón - 1/21/2008
Los partos a mujeres haitianas en la maternidad La Altagracia han aumentado considerablemente.
SANTO DOMINGO.- En los últimos dos años el número de nacimientos de hijos de madres haitianas en la maternidad Nuestra Señora de La Altagracia se ha incrementado considerablemente, al pasar de un nueve a un 22 por ciento con relación al número de partos que se atienden en el hospital, reveló ayer el director del centro.

El doctor Juan Cid Troncoso aseguró que el año pasado en la maternidad se registraron 21 mil nacimientos y de ellos el 22 por ciento era de madres haitianas.

Muchas de las embarazadas llegan al hospital al momento de parir, se cree que directamente desde Haití, por lo que no tienen expedientes médicos en el centro de salud.

Dijo que eso genera el inconveniente de que muchas llegan con anemias e infecciones, no hablan español, ni están
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Written by: greenwave, 21 Jan 2008 5:20 PM
From: Dominican Republic
The author forgot one African tradition that even Haiti is dropping out and that is VooDoo! This is a very African tradition and yet none of the "Push Africanization Process" people have equated the Haitian as being "European loving" for abandoning this practice.

Most certainly DR should re-insert its authority and ignore pressure from proAfrican and prohaitian groups to transform DR into a satellite of Haiti. Given the history and all the imperialistic intentions of Haiti to annex DR, we should never entertain the idea of accepting culture relate to Haiti!
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Written by: baldoria23, 21 Jan 2008 5:50 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Cabrera, M.T.S.
thanks for your comments greenwave. The reason I "forgot", or better yet excluded, those historical interchanges btw the DR and Haiti was b/c I am focusing on discrimination in general, not solely on discrimination against Haiti. This is more than a historical analysis, it is an attempt to analyze how discrimination and oppression operate in DR - not just about haitian discrimination, but discrimination and oppression of women, non-whites, homosexuals, the mentally and phisically ill, et cetera. Apologize if I that wasn't clear.

Does that address your concerns? Let me know if it doesn't and I'll try to explain a bit better. Sometimes I get too into the theory and forget the practical...
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Written by: jemesouviens1804, 22 Jan 2008 1:32 AM
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
To: Greenwave,
I urge you that next time you want to place historical facts, it would be nice and more acceptable that you put the Historical facts that are correct. You clearly forgot to mention several events in your previous post....Like how in 1795, France and Spain signed the "Treaty of Basel", which was the treaty that caused Spain to cede to whole island of Hispaniola to France, and have all of its citizens(Spaniards) leave within a year(Clearly this part never happend). Secondly, you mentioned the Haitian invasion of 1801...This was when Toussaint L'ouverture paraded into Santo Domingo and freed all slaves over there. Then you mention the invasion of 1805...Well a year before "Haiti", which became independent, tried to control the territory that they won only to be ousted by Spanish colonist and the French. Now for 1822-1844, Haiti finally was able to control its territory but only for 22 years....Continued
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Written by: jemesouviens1804, 22 Jan 2008 1:44 AM
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
That was when Dominican's national hero, Juan Pablo Duarte, started a revolution to rid the Haitians from his side of the Island....His justification was that the Haitians outlawed the right to assemble, they surpress the population, they disbanding the local militia/Army, and that they were culturally different in that Haitians spoke French, and his people spoke spanish...Now theres more to the reason but I will not get into it. From 1844-1861 Haitians try to regain their lost territory to no-avail. Now can you tell me what happened after 1861.....The Dominican Republic reverted back to being a spanish colony, and back came slavery...The very thing Toussaint Louverture, Alexandre Petion, Dessaline, and Christophe committed their life to getting rid of. I suggest you do research before you post historical facts that are deceptive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Basel.
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Written by: FranktheTank, 22 Jan 2008 6:32 PM
From: United Kingdom
Wikipedia, strikes again lol! can somebody please find a more reputable source; when posting here, lets try to keep the collegial atmosphere alive .
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Written by: Lautaro, 22 Jan 2008 11:53 PM
From: Dominican Republic
You'll have to forgive me if I don't agree with you on this one, mr. jemesouviens, but in fact, you're the one who needs to get your facts straight, because we dominicans could not take from you something which already belonged to us. You see, before the treaty of Basel that you love so much to mention came into being, the island was, first and foremost, and spanish colony-settlement (hence the name Hispaniola that appears on every single US chart of the island), from 1492-1605. In 1605, in order to stop the smuggling activities of the inhabitants (the ancestors of the current dominicans) with the dutch and the french huguenots, the Spanish Crown ordered the devastations of the towns of the western side of the island and the relocation of those town's inhabitants to the eastern side. The towns destroyed were: 1- Bayaja, on the Manzanillo Bay, 2-Santa Maria de la Vera Paz, where the current Port-Au-Prince is located, 3- Yaguana, the place of the current Leogane (cont...)
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Written by: Lautaro, 23 Jan 2008 12:03 AM
From: Dominican Republic
, 4- Puerto de Paz, where the current Port de Paix is located, and, more to the east: 5- Monte Cristi and Puerto Plata. With the inhabitants of Bayaja and Yaguana, the town of Bayaguana would be formed and with the ones of Monte Cristi and Puerto Plata, the town of Monte Plata would be formed. These traumatic events would be known as the Devastations of Osorio, because of the spanish governor, Antonio Osorio, who carried out those orders. A great part of the historians consider this events as the first signs of some sort of national thinking on the part of the islanders, because they defied the crown's orders, going so far as having some armed skirmishes with the colonial forces on the island Central Plateau. Half a century later, seeing as how the spanish authorities left the western part abandoned, Bertrand d'Ogeron, a french adventurer, would form the colony of Saint Domingue (1661), (cont...)
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Written by: Lautaro, 23 Jan 2008 12:22 AM
From: Dominican Republic
(cont..) Saint Domingue's main economic acitvities were the cultivation of tobacco and the hunting of the wild boar, actvities that didn't demand the use of african labour, but two things would change this, first, the extinction of the wild cattle, second, the ban against tobacco in Europe on the late XVII century, and third, the profits gained by the english with their sugar plantations on Jamaica, which used african slave labour. This events would force the colony to change its economic activities, and, on the year 1710, the colony transformed its tobacco lots into sugar, coffee and cocoa ones and began its massive importation of african slaves, and the rest, as some writers say, is history.
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Written by: JOHNUSA This user is banned, 23 Jan 2008 2:20 AM
From: United States
Guys put this article to sleep and let all of us say God Bless America.
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Written by: Lautaro, 23 Jan 2008 8:37 AM
From: Dominican Republic
More than that, mr. John, we should pray for it. With the ups and downs of the New York Stock Exchange, nobody knows how many people could end up in poverty like it happened on the 1929 crash, or worse, how much the current stock crisis could affect little countries like the DR.
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Written by: jemesouviens1804, 23 Jan 2008 10:39 AM
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
To: Latauro,
You do have some good points but I want to emphasize to you that the slave army which switch sides to help to French defeat Spanish attemps to regain the western side in 1793-95, caused the Spaniard to relinqusih any claim to the whole island....Thus giving it to French control. Several years later the "Indegenous Army" led by Petion, Dessaline, defeated the French Army. Im sure you heard the saying "to the victor goes the spoils". Now I clearly understand that the Spanish/Dominican colonist had been on the island way longer than the French and had a justifiable claim. I just want you to see it from my perspective, even though we disagree....But Latauro please dont think that I view D.R. in this modern era as a Break-away territory of Haiti. Clearly, Dominican Republic is for Dominicans, and Haiti is for Haitians.
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Written by: Lautaro, 23 Jan 2008 10:45 AM
From: Dominican Republic
What I lament the most, mr. jemesouviens, is that the french deprived the island of Toussaint Louverture. From my point of view, he was the only man who could have led the island to the progress it duly deserved. Dessalines, Christophe, Petion and the others may have been unmatched soldiers, but none of them had the administrative capabilities of Toussaint. A fact proven by the economic performance of the island during his rule, which was the half of the one before the Revolution, an awesome feat, considering the decade of wanton destruction and outright warfare that the Revolution brought with it. Plus, he was the only one of those generals that understood this single fact: For the island to be one, the indigenous army needed the concourse of the easterners, that's why, on the taking of possession of the eastern side in 1801, he prevented his generals from commiting acts of unnecessary destruction and bloodshed, and left almost all their institutions intact (excepting slavery) (cont)
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Written by: Lautaro, 23 Jan 2008 11:45 AM
From: Dominican Republic
(cont...) A fact that was utterly disregarded by the other rulers that followed him, due to the thriumphalism that they felt after defeating the french, a thriumphalism that may be excused but that would cost them dearly, as future events would prove in due time. Also, he understood that, until Haiti had the strenght to fight back, both economically and militarily, it could not give itself the luxury of alienating the white powers. That's the reason why he delayed declaring independence as long as he could, because, even though the country had the manpower and military skill to beat any European army that the powers would throw at it, on the long run that military victory could prove to be a disastrous defeat, because the war that would ensue would leave country open to be economically strangled by this powers, as it indeed has been the case.
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Written by: jemesouviens1804, 23 Jan 2008 1:33 PM
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
to:Latauro,
As Im reading your response I began to scratch my head and wonder if you got a degree in Haitian history. Your comments cant be anymore correct. It is obviously clear that Toussiant L'ouverture was the smartest and most progressive Haitian in the country's history. I believe that if he was not betrayed by his fellow countrymen, the Haiti you see in the media today would be very different. However, dispite the situation Haiti is in now(albiet, things are getting better), I still feel that the 13 years of war, death,and in-fighting was worth it. I say this because quite frankly, I rather have nothing but the underwear that I am wearing now and live in object poverty, than be someone's slave. Im curious to know if you will go see the "Toussaint L'Ouverture Movie" that is directed by Danny Glover, which comes out in theaters in December of this year.
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Written by: Lautaro, 23 Jan 2008 8:45 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Most of it was self-taught, mr. jemesouviens. That is because I got tired of the dominican elite's antihaitian propaganda, so I decided to learn the truth by myself, reading authors like the celebrated Jean Price Mars, Dantes Bellegarde, and others. I didn't know that Toussaint's movie was going to get out this December, but yes, I'm deeply interested by it, because he's my favorite character from the island's history, the other ones being the maroon leader Sebastian Lemba and the Taino chieftain Enriquillo, which were the first ones to start the long and bloody struggle against european colonialism.
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Written by: dreadlocks, 24 Jan 2008 1:16 PM
From: United States
to jemesouviens; it is a breath of fresh air to read postings by yourself, mr Lautaro, ed acosta, frank aquino, thelmo rancier , to name a few. it is evident that you are well prepared in your knowledge, but exhibit the humility that comes from self confidence. on the other side of the ledger are the self proclaimed authorities, who try to make their points by resorting to insults and snide remarks. these are usually the guys who have only seen books on tv. keep up the good work, and continue to refresh us with knowledge, at least those of us who actually want to learn something besides schoolboy insults.
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Written by: JabaoHaitian, 24 Jan 2008 1:32 PM
From: Haiti
Lautaro,

To fast forward to present day events. Aristide made the same mistakes as his predecessors meaning he was demanding reparations from France which was his death sentence. The so called friends of Haiti sent him on a one way ticket to central africa using the DR as a base to escort him out. I am know way an Aristide supporter but his intentions were good up to the point he wanted to go head on with super powers. As history has played out Haiti has been punished for daring to stick her head out of the hole. Ask yourself this question? What happen to the reparation campaign? It vanished into thin air and haiti's economic situation is worse due to inflation to the infinite degree. Our national products can't compete with imported goods and the common haitian suffer or go across the border looking for a better life. BTW, the dominican poultry industry is hurting with the band. Another proof that DR and Haiti need better trade agreements and improve relations.
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Written by: Lautaro, 24 Jan 2008 1:58 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Only the half of that reparation would be enough to adress the problems of the whole island, mr. jabao. From what I have heard, the number is around the billion of US$. Imagine how many schools, hospitals, and industries could be built with that? As for the ban, I think that this might be a sign that the haitian state is starting to wake up from its deep slumber, a sign that it's not willing to let its citizens be poisoned by other countries' trash. I know that I could be crucified for saying this, but I think that it's time for the dominican businessmen to stop relying so much on what the state can do for them, and to start modernizing their production process, because they have to understand that, on the international arena, the rules that they are acustomed to do not apply when competing with the multinational sharks out there. Plus, the dominican state needs to stop its condescending and hypocrite attitude when dealing with Haiti and start to treat that country as an equal.
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Written by: JabaoHaitian, 24 Jan 2008 3:38 PM
From: Haiti
Lautaro,My post 1st post was deleted, I guess it went beyond the rules. I initially commended you for such a great post in which your observation of the T. L. scheme to not completely break away from France. Too bad Napoleon didn't want to accept an L from negros. I want to know why so many dominicans are quick to throw their patriotism in the air when it comes to haiti and not write,speak out about how spain raped the people and the lands resources. I will not delve into history too much but you and Jemesouviens made excellent points. But here comes the billion dollar question, Why aren't dominicans & haitians fighting to overcome there differences and make mends with each other ? Both of the nations people were brought to the island and are products of european powers expanding in the new world looking for resources. If we cease to see each other (mainly dominicans) as the enemy we can both overcome issues that are forcing both nations to leave the island.
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Written by: JabaoHaitian, 24 Jan 2008 3:58 PM
From: Haiti
Lautaro, reparations would rebuild the whole island (still independent nations) IF the haitian & dominican government manage that money not holding my breath. What happen to that campaign? Haven't you noticed Aristide was escorted out of the country by the friends of haiti during the 200 years anniversary. Another bofetada to haiti and her people that they will never be allowed to tell their story with dignity to the world. How an ill equipped slaves with nothing but courage defeated the strongest empire at that time and made her go broke that La France had to sell her territories in the mid-west (Louisiana Purchase) for a bargain to the US of A. The Liberator of SA, Simon Bolivar took refuge in haiti until he can regroup (ammunition & provided with haitian soldiers) to return to fight against the spaniards. Now how would reparations from france to haiti help the DR? I will let a few ponder on that a tad.
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Written by: Lautaro, 24 Jan 2008 4:19 PM
From: Dominican Republic
The persistence of this "haitian enemy" scam might be explained because of the interest groups that are profitting from that divisiveness, mr. jabao. The interest groups have been (and I think always will be) the bane of the existence our island. Look at how the different governments of the DR have neglected to solve the countries problems of transportation and electricity. Why? because of the political power of the interest groups hidden behind the maintainance of the status quo. In my opinion, the same reasoning might be at work behind the troubled state of the Haiti/DR relations. By making everything that have some semblance of a binational agenda a thing of taboo, these groups have achieved an unbounded level of freedom from which they can keep carrying out all their dirty business (smuggling of weapons, drugs, field slaves, etc.) as they please.
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Written by: jemesouviens1804, 24 Jan 2008 5:04 PM
From: United States, Spring Valley, NY
I believe that the reparation money would give Haiti the justice that they been denied for over 200 years. what occured in 1822 is quite simply a "Robbery". Aristide was right to demand the Haitian people's money back. I believe that if the legal preceeding went through,Haiti would have won without a doubt......But at the same time France would never pay them back. The main reason why theres no talk of this anymore is simply because the Haitian government is afraid that a repeat of 2004 will happen again.
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Written by: JabaoHaitian, 24 Jan 2008 5:05 PM
From: Haiti
Laurtaro, hmmm? very interesting...The haitian scare "el cuco" that wants to pillage the dominincan state have served haitian elites & dominicans elites. The more chaos and division among the mass(poor & illiterate) haitians & dominicans their pockets are getting fatter. BTW, do you really think the band of poultry hasn't created a black mark. Once the dominican people realize they have been dooped by their government which the haitian mass already know but can't do anything about then things will remain the same. Lionel Fernandez obsession with the metro is literally blinding him from the true necessities of the domincan people. Préval has his hands literally tied behind his back since the elite business are stringing him along for the personal gain but relations between Haiti & DR has improved with the two presidents.
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Written by: JabaoHaitian, 24 Jan 2008 5:27 PM
From: Haiti
J'mesouviens, it wasn't robbery rather extortion. If you don't pay up we'll move in and take you out. Don't allow patriotism to blurr your thought process. Aristide demanding reparation was his death sentence. Don't get me wrong it was an excellent idea but the way he went about it was suicide. One doesn't go against super powers with no back up. We aren't fighting for liberty physically rather mental & economical freedom. I would of preferred him demonstrate to the world the skeleton in the closet meaning humiliating la france in front of the world of their horrendous acts. If you can't get the world to empathize with your struggle then you've already lost the battle. Besides, Aristide was into some shady deals which is steal effecting haiti at present and if he doesn't stay quiet he'll be sharing a prison cell along Ketant,Quirino, and others. The thing we haven't realize that it's nothing but business while making the poor feel they are part of something. Corruption 101.
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Written by: JabaoHaitian, 24 Jan 2008 5:56 PM
From: Haiti
The campaign should reflect on how La France literally threaten the young nation by docking ships of haiti's shores if they didn't not pay for property damages "freedom of slaves". It's a business but we are too indulge in fighting with words and weapons rather than a pen & contracts. We haitians have been made a martyr of what can and will happen to you if you dare defy imperialism. To the point we've fallen on death ears to the international community (friends of haiti) and ridiculed by are bethrens in the region especially our dominican brothers. We need to rekindle the reparation movement in a way that we can grab attention of the citizens of the world. Documents of La france torturing slaves and constantly trying to take back their property and proof of payments unti the debt was settled which indirectly caused haiti to plummet to a state of poverty. This would force La france to rebuild haiti like like Marshall Plan built Europe or face shame amongst the world.
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Written by: Lautaro, 24 Jan 2008 9:11 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Maybe if Haiti did that reparations campaigned allied with other colonial victims of la france like Algeria and Vietnam then it would really mean something on the world's media, specially on the Algerian case, where the french army was inmensely brutal against the civilian population (I have heard that it was there that Jean Marie Le Pen did his "apprenticeship" on fascism). By the way, have any of you read the book "The Wretched of the Earth" by Frantz Fanon, an author from Martinique who was the preeminent thinker of the 20th century on the issue of decolonization and the psychopathology of colonization?
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Written by: FranktheTank, 25 Jan 2008 6:03 PM
From: United Kingdom
Mr. Jabao, I hope you didn’t take my comments with a grain of salt; I just couldn’t let that “typical Dominican women” comment go( although sometimes, it can be true), without saying something in return. I’m sorry; that Dominican today, took down ur response, before I could read it(I bet it was really out there since it got deleted lol). The “Little Haiti” comment was made by Cuban friends awhile back,(I don’t live in Miami) when I told them that I was going to(Dinner) little Haiti with my Haitian friends. I call for a truce, and offer up my apologies ,for my comments: I usually don’t take cheap shots, but I guess this British weather is affecting my brain chemistry( how can these people survive in this gloomy environment; I have yet to see the sun).
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Written by: FranktheTank, 25 Jan 2008 6:07 PM
From: United Kingdom
On a positive note, I know; I have always been a pessimist in analyzing Haiti prospects for the future,but a recent e-mail from one of friends from college has changed my mind. My friend(Haitian) is a civil engineer(has his masters) one of the smartest people I have had the pleasure of meeting. He was informing me on his intentions of moving to Haiti full time, if Haiti can continue to capitalize on valuable human capital it possesses abroad maybe there is hope for Haiti’s virility ,and viability in the years to come. I have not been in Haiti in about 18 months so I can’t speak to the progress on the ground directly.From a investors perspective, Haiti is ripe; there’s are countless of legitimate money making opportunities that can be exploited, but as Mr. Jabao states the lack of infrastructure (financial or other wise) is the main hydrous (that along with political stability) in foreign investment.
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Written by: FranktheTank, 25 Jan 2008 6:14 PM
From: United Kingdom
Haiti getting reparations would be in my opinion, a slam dunk: there ample historical, cultural, and economic basis for such an action. I wonder who has jurisdiction in this kind of matters?



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Written by: FranktheTank, 25 Jan 2008 6:14 PM
From: United Kingdom
Take Jacmel for instance;the land is prime for high end coffee growing(you should see how some people here spend on blue mountain coffee), so me and friends decided to give it a go; prospects looked good on paper relatively low start up, low overhead ,good connections with the government,plus my connections in the commodities and imports industry, but the political instability destroyed any chance of success, before we could move on to financing. I believe the plan can now be turned in to a cooperative for poor farmers. Maybe, I’ll contribute to Dominican Today in article about the 2 I‘s(initiative,innovation) and the New growth Theory it would include such high lights as crowding out effect, and economic development in the DR and most importantly CHANGE.” Success represents the 1 percent of your work that results from the 99 percent that is called failure.”
Soichiro Honda, founder, Honda motor company
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Written by: greenwave, 25 Jan 2008 7:46 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Black and mulatto are found everywhere in Dominican life: Our president is mulatto, our secretary of the Armed Forces and the Chief of Police are mulatto, several TV news anchorman and women are black and/or mulato (check CDN and RDN). Several judges are black/mulatto, several professors (universities and high schools) are black/mulatto, etc.

But the author metioned the picture of light skin people in billboards, magazines, and some TV shows. That is the author is confusing what the capitalists and commerce people do to make a buck! The images shown in different media is driven by the capitalists and not necessarily the government or the society. The capitalists do what sells and they are selling an image that the consumers want! It does not mean that the consumers are racist nor they are racially discriminating. SEPARATE CAPITALISM FROM THE REAL IMAGE WHERE BLACK/MULATTO ARE HOLDING POWERFUL GOVERNMENTAL AND PRIVATE SECTOR JOBS! AND THAT IS THE PLAIN TRUTH! DR IS DIVERSIFIED
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Written by: greenwave, 25 Jan 2008 11:48 PM
From: Dominican Republic
AntonioJ

The spanish did not introduced slavery into DR between 1860 and 1865! Stop lying!

1817 Spain signs a treaty with England agreeing to end the Spanish slave trade north of the equator immediately, and south of the equator in 1820.
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Written by: antonioj, 26 Jan 2008 12:16 AM
From: Canada, Oakville on terra firma
I would disagree with GW 's argument for the simple fact that society as whole play a role as we relate to each other on a daily basis, it's obvious and a fact to all us, that there is a great imbalance within DR with respect to full equal opportunity for all his citizens.
I would differ to say that the advertisement are being pushed deliberately, but not necessarily reflective of the population over-all

There is no doubt such attitude was fostered over time and now in 2008 there is a pressing need for real reform to start, any responsible goverment should respond to such chalenge
1. Revising DR & Haitian history
2.TV ad
3. Mandate change
4.Educate
DR have to prosper want it or not some people may be longing for the old days, but it was the past surely, there was error committed I am sure we all know by now. The author keep emphazing race black and mulatto... calling the current president a mulatto is a long shot...I think light skin black or mix is more appropriate
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Written by: greenwave, 26 Jan 2008 1:06 AM
From: Dominican Republic

EDUCATION OPPORTUNITY IS ONLY MANDATED FOR PRIMARY SCHOOL. OTHER SCHOOLING CAN NOT BE MANDATED (SECONDARY AND UNIVERSITY) UNLESS A DICTATORSHIP OR SOCIALISM IS IMPOSED. WHEN POOR PEOPLE HAVE CHILDREN, IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT SOCIETY HAS THE DUTY TO MAKE AN ENGINEER OR SCIENTISTS OR LAWYER OUT THE CHILDREN. THAT IS A CHOICE TO BE MADE BY THE CHILDREN AND THEIR PARENTS. THE GOVERNMENT OFFERS MILITARY OPPORTUNITIES FOR THOSE NOT CHOOSING ACADEMICS. SOME POOR PEOPLE DROP ACADEMICS ALTOGETHER AND PURSUIT TO PLAY BASEBALL AS WAY TO MOVE UP FINANCIALLY (OTHERS MIGRATE WHILE OTHER RESORTS TO DRUGS/VIOLENCE/ROBBERY)
JOBS OPPORTUNITIES DEPENDS ON EDUCATION/EXPERIENCE. JOBS OFFERS DEPEND ON ECONOMIC ACTIVITY. DR DOES NOT HAVE THE ECONOMIC GROWTH (JOBS AVAILABLE) TO OFFER JOBS TO THE THOUSANDS OF GRADUATES GENERATED EVERY YEAR! EVEN THE SUPEPOWER, THE U. S. HAS UNEMPLOYMENT, POVERTY, HOMELESS, AND NOT EVERYONE HAS THE SAME OPPORTUNITY. SOME DON'T IMPOSE YOUR UTOPIA ON DR!

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Written by: JabaoHaitian, 26 Jan 2008 2:31 AM
From: Haiti
Frank, no apologies needed. We can sit here and type negative stereotypes all day. I am surprise that you are not aware of the stereotypes we haitians have towards the dominican people. Ok, ya I don't want this to go sour. I am very optimistic about Haiti my beautiful country but I have to take my emotion and pride to see the current situation. BTW, dominican republic economy needs haiti and imo one can't function without the other. As we can see with the poultry industry the DR don't know what to do due to the band. I think it is time for the dominican republic to respect big brother Haiti. Now regarding reparations, I think haiti has a strong case. Haiti was never late in making payments and literally went broke. Compaigning how france not only enslaved the people but force haiti to pay for its independence. We actually fought than after beating the opponent was force to reward him. The DR's economy is doing ok but if corruption continue to reign & the metro which is
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Written by: JabaoHaitian, 26 Jan 2008 2:47 AM
From: Haiti
going to force people out of work and in my opinion will not decrease congestion enough. I personally think the investment should've been towards education. We'll have to wait in see if Lionel Fernandez prove the non believers wrong. BTW, how would reparation to haiti effect the DR? If haitians and dominicans don't end this play ground fight I think that we'll miss the bus and lose out to central america. And if Castro cranks tourism in Cuba will effect the DR big time. As u mentioned the instability in haiti makes it hard for foreignors to invest but I encourage more dominicans to invest there. Instead of taking a yola to the PR, they can find a gold mine just by crossing the border..
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Written by: antonioj, 28 Jan 2008 2:18 PM
From: Canada, Oakville on terra firma
I think the authors GREENWAVE, have totally missed my point again as usual, but he preferred to dissect bits and pieces to make his argument,

You want may want to re-read my previous post above.

The Haitian communities are well aware of your distorted believes, and the wrong fact of Haitian and DR history that you seem to be carrying around on many forum such as topix under Haiti (forum) ect… You have chosen to describe Haitians the most heinous way as possible to top it all with the most foul and grotesque language, fortunately you will not be able to that in that forum.

Now, Mr GREENWAVE I invite you to bring up your lies and your cohorted fact in that forum if so believe they are real, Sir you can do that now simply cut and paste less the heinous languages of course.