From: United States, The Lake of Fire
yet all the attention is focused on racism and human rights because everybody wants to magnify what they hear and read. yet these facts do not seem to grab anybodys attention
Written by: juanb, 6 Oct 2009 11:18 AM
From: Dominican Republic
That's a lot of money over 4 years. What other options are there?
However, when you think about it, that is nothing compared to what our politicians are stealing from us, MONTHLY.
Written by: josean, 6 Oct 2009 11:19 AM
From: United States
How much did the Hatian's cheap labor contibute to the Dominican economy in that same period, is the real question? NOBODY gives nothing for nothing!
Written by: josean, 6 Oct 2009 11:36 AM
From: United States
God Bless you too!
From: United States, The Lake of Fire
josean you should have seen that one coming. not a tactful way of putting things concerning haitian labor. haitian labor is illegal labor regardless if stupid dominicans are allowing it or not.
From: Dominican Republic, Dando pela en las 5 esquinas
Health minister Bautista Rojas noted that the country’s health centers have instructions to provide equal attention to all patients, Dominican or foreigner, “because health doesn’t have ideology, race or religion.”
memorize this words above so you can remember them the next time the name of my country comes out of your ungratefull mouth, the next time you feel like biting the hand that feed and now heals you.
mal agradecidos que son estos perros , esa pared hay que subirla pero ya
From: United States, The Lake of Fire
old school trinitario soldado in the forces of quisqueya! k sigue la tradition compai
Written by: josean, 6 Oct 2009 12:00 PM
From: United States
Gentelemen,
I am more Dominican than both of you put together.
Being Dominican doesn’t equal being anti-Haitian nor does it make you more of a Dominican, what it does however, is make you less of a human being!
I am amazed at the people who get upset when those of us criticizes the policies of our corrupt government, "because the world reads these post and they make DR look bad," but they are tolerant of this racist anti-Haitian xenophobia, which really makes us look bad and backward and uneducated to the entire world!
What hypocrites!
From: United States, The Lake of Fire
you sound like a little child trying to prove something just because your little feelings were hurt. who is the llorona now? LOL more dominican than the both of us put together due to the fact that you are some harmonious angel d los cielos. vete pal cielo y dile a los angeles desnudos k mirabal era dominicano d pura sepa! LOLOLOL jajaja nobody was talking about any haitian zenophobia! now you are changing the subject and just to think that you had shame. wow you are worst than these haitians on here.
"Haitian xenophobia, which really makes us look bad and backward and uneducated to the entire world!"
you have got to be kidding me. who gives a crap about the entire world which has enough racism of its own. i think you are the one who is uneducated and backward. due yourself a favor an pick up a book an learn so you don't continue to sound ignorant.
Written by: antonioj, 6 Oct 2009 12:39 PM
From: Canada, home safe
These figures are very high ??? are they independently verified ?
Josean you better start learning creole
Written by: josean, 6 Oct 2009 12:47 PM
From: United States
MIRABUENO,
Thank you for your last post it is an excellent example of what I expressed in my last comments!
From: United States, The Lake of Fire
i know that the truth hurts but those numbers are true. its so hard for the masses to admit that such a nation could be so generous. by the way josean stop lying about your ethnicity because you fool nobody. antonio is more dominican than 10 joseans put together. forget antonio.. fred dobbs an william the cabaret are more dominican than half of you! LOLOLOLOLOLOL ave maria purisima....lolololol
From: United States
I wonder how much money is allocated and spent for the Dominican population where it should be spent, to fight medical illness that affect our DOMINICAN society, like family therapy, children health services and counseling, drug an alcohol prevention programs, counseling for young women so they do not prostitute themselves, how about after school programs for school children that could help their mental well beings. All these programs falls under medical ramification which should cover because obviously there is a lot of money that could be re-routed to the Dominican population that is in great need for these services and these funds are mal distributed.
Lets spent more of our medical money where is need, our kids mental and medical needs.
Again we are not a developed country; our population needs have to be met first.
Written by: acmore, 6 Oct 2009 1:27 PM
From: United States
How much does the U.S. pay for illegal Dominicans using public services? I know two Dominican women who have been to the emergency room nine times in the last six months for nothing serious. Stop whining about the poor Haitians.
Written by: josean, 6 Oct 2009 1:28 PM
From: United States
poponmachete1,
I agree with you 100%!
But our Haitian brothers are victims of the unregulated laws of supply and demand, which neither they nor the Dominican masses have control over. Our national economic policy is dependent on the super exploitation of workers, so when Dominicans rebel the powers that be turn a blind eye to undocumented Haitian immigrants to supply the labor needs of the business cronies. Just like the US business community does with undocumented workers in the US.
I would support immediately, an organized human repatriation of all undocumented Haitians, while simultaneously giving jail time and serious financial fines to ANYONE caught employing an undocumented immigrant, be they Haitian or any other nationality.
Lets see if all the xenophobic politicians and there supporters lobby for such a law to be enacted!
From: United States, The Lake of Fire
you are just another troll with a mask on thats about to be taken right off de la cara tuya! nobody is whinning about the haitians but as usual trolls like you do not read previous posts and put robotic answers that have no substance. if their was the least amount of graditude shown and not so much finger pointing than the whole world would be a better place. by the way all illegals deported immediately!!!! yes even the dominicans in the states and puerto rico just in case you resort to those places. well you already did with the united states
From: United States, The Lake of Fire
"haitian labor is illegal labor regardless if stupid dominicans are allowing it or not".
see you do not read what i post but yet you use zenophobic excuses. obviously since you got caught up in linguistics and still missed the point. haitian labor being illegal labor would have to mean all illegals.
From: Dominican Republic, Dando pela en las 5 esquinas
WHAT I TELL YOU MIRABUENO
The sicko continues to call himself dominican even when he's debunked as been a hating haitiana.
my dirty socks are more dominican than you are, no dominicano in his right mind will side with fake reports that undermine our country good name and people, any REAL dominican will stand by quisqueya no matter what people say, without even considering the consequence,but you wouldn't understand that because YOU'RE NOT DOMINICAN, so stop talking as if you were, you are not fooling anyone, besides who the f*ck is talkning about haitian labor? If haitians weren't so hungry and desperate maybe they will not slave themselves so easily, i mean some haitian work for shelter in DR right now.
the only reason you bring that up is just to justify the fact that the DR is the nation that has treated haiti with the most generosity and tolerance. And like any other troll can't stand the fact that DR is your benefactor.
Written by: Micaela, 6 Oct 2009 3:16 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Juanb what the money our politicians are stealing from us, have to do with us supporting haitians health care for free. How about what the haitian politicians steal from them and we have not benefits whatsoever.
Written by: josean, 6 Oct 2009 3:18 PM
From: United States
The more you "gentlemen” post the more you proof my point, so knock your xenophobic racist selves out!
I enjoy the self-incrimination on your parts!
Written by: Micaela, 6 Oct 2009 3:24 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Josean do you realize that even while being "anti-Haitians" as per you, we are still more human beings than the people in Haiti that do not provide them with jobs, food, clean water, medical care and basic human dignitiy, but push them away as surpplus, unwanted people.
Now, that world that reads these post knows about the situation in Haiti and does nothing to help them. Why should we, taking the burden alone, care about them?
Written by: danny00, 6 Oct 2009 3:48 PM
From: United States
However, when you think about it, that is nothing compared to what our politicians are stealing from us, MONTHLY., good statement..... ALSO im sure the big shot dominican business men what import the haitians are way above this numbers dollars wise with the CHEAP LABOR THEY PAY.
Written by: danny00, 6 Oct 2009 3:56 PM
From: United States
MICAELA u say burden aloneok! DONT WORRY ABOUT THE REST OF THE WORLD "WORRY IN YOUR HEART WHAT U DO"..... also the rest of the WORLD DOES GIVE HELP TO THE HAITIANS.... yes they need more then this... but the REST OF THE WORLD DOES NOT SHARE THE SAME ISLAND WITH THE HAITIANS DO THEY?.....i dont think the rest of the world thinks the dr can SLOVE THE HAITIAN PROBLEMS.... SO GO EASY AND DONT WORRY SO MUCH ABOUT THE REST OF THE WORLD.
From: United States, The Lake of Fire
"so knock your xenophobic racist selves out"!
LAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Written by: danny00, 6 Oct 2009 4:05 PM
From: United States
holla josean.....does with undocumented workers in the US, ALWAYS THE U.S.A.... OK..... HAVE MANY FRIENDS From MEXICO OVER HERE IN FLORIDA...... THEY EARN ABOUT $125US---$175US and some more a day....yes their are some that are underpaid.... but milions of them that work for 4-5 years and then go back to their countries with some good dollars in their pockets and from many countries not only mexico..... and i dont have to count the dominicans do i?... lots make lots of money in the states.
almost forget most of them pay no TAXES,,, give nothing back to the the united states.... use the health care systems when they are sick..... drain what every they can from thom this country....
Written by: danny00, 6 Oct 2009 4:08 PM
From: United States
in the states if you are ill or sick, hurt what ever u can go to one hospital and get some help.....
if one gringo was to get sick in lets say santo domingo..... they could not even get one GLASS OF WATER..... ok.. enough said for now....
$30,000us or more to fly back to the states.....wow! big numbers if u get sick in the dr....
From: Dominican Republic, Dando pela en las 5 esquinas
MICAELA
for Dominicans is impossible to talk about the cost of supporting a population of more than 2 million " surplus or unwanted people" without been called xenophobic racist or anti-haitiano.
We are haiti # 1 life line and they know it, specially the 2 millions + that live in DR, I understand that Haiti is also of great importance for our nation and i think every human been should be treat it with respect and dignity, the problem i have with the one who insist of calling himself dominicano and everytime is time to stand up for DR he does the opposite, he stab us in the back and sides and justify the campaign of lies mounted abroad against the same people he call his own.
for them the descrimination only comes from dominicans, is sort of like a fetish they have.
some post their moronic comments just to get a harsh response and mastubate reading the insults.
Dominican have been the care takers of that putrid pile they call haiti for more than a 100 yrs now
hasta cuando????
Written by: danny00, 6 Oct 2009 4:19 PM
From: United States
THANK U ACMORE... THANK U SO MUCH.....FOR WHAT U WROTE How much does the U.S. pay for illegal Dominicans using public services? I know two Dominican women who have been to the emergency room nine times in the last six months for nothing serious. Stop whining about the poor Haitians.
HAVE ONE FRIEND HE HAS A BUILDING IN POP WORTH LOTS OF MONEY 15 HOMES IN THE STATES..... I CAN GO ON AND ON HE HAS LOTS OF MONEY....... OK! HIS WIFE GETS SECTION 8.... HIM AND HIS WIFE DRAIN EVERY PENNY THEY CAN FROM THE CITY OF NEW YORK .... SOCIAL SERVICES, FOOD STAMPTS,,,, COME ON STOP YOUR BULL-SH T AND CRYING ON THIS SITE... STAND UP AND BE MEN IF U CAN DO THIS..EVERY THING COMES TO DOMINICANS ALWAYS THEY HAVE THEIR HANDS OUT.... IM DOMINICAN BUT I WORK HARD FOR MY DOLLARS.... BUT I SLEEP WELL AT NIGHT.... AND I FEEL GOOD INSIDE ALL THE TIME...AND I DONT CRY LIKE ONE CHILD....
From: United States, Rock Hills, North Carolina
U.S $55 million is pocket change. I don't think that removing the service will make any difference; while providing it does result on limiting the spread of disease and other health problems. Given the unintended benefits, I say it’s a good investment.
Written by: josean, 6 Oct 2009 5:11 PM
From: United States
LAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! just brain and you have a new nickname!
Written by: josean, 6 Oct 2009 5:12 PM
From: United States
"Dominican have been the care takers of that putrid pile"
Then they get offened when you call them out as racists!
But again they keep proving my point!
From: United States, The Lake of Fire
josean el vende patria del ano
Written by: josean, 6 Oct 2009 5:35 PM
From: United States
"Josean do you realize that even while being "anti-Haitians" as per you, we are still more human beings than the people in Haiti that do not provide them with jobs, food, clean water, medical care and basic human dignitiy, but push them away as surpplus, unwanted people."
Micaela,
First of all thank you for your respectful comment and question. Secondly, I did not say that all of us Dominicans are ant-Haitians, xenophobic or racists, I am not, my family is not and I hope you are not as many other person here on DT aren’t either. But it would be also misleading to deny that many of us are and try to deny it.
I agree that Haitians are victimized by other Haitians as it’s equally true that Dominicans are victimized by other Dominicans and Mexicans are victimized by other Mexicans.
continued:
Written by: josean, 6 Oct 2009 5:36 PM
From: United States
In fact if you changed the words "the people in Haiti" for "the people in the Dominican Republic" that do not provide them with jobs, food, clean water, medical care and basic human dignity, but push them away as surplus, unwanted people. We are talking about the same condition for most poor people in the world who are forced to become economic exiles.
The question is who are "the people in Haiti" and "the people in the Dominican Republic" it is not your average Haitian or Dominican who are essentially powerless, it is the rich elites who exploit both of us and discard them to the Dominican Republic or to the Sharks in El Canal de La Mona!
The elites of both countries could resolve this problem, but it is economically beneficial to both of them to keep things the way they are, while trying to keep us the Dominican and Haitian masses at each others throats as they laugh all the way to bank!
Written by: Micaela, 6 Oct 2009 7:28 PM
From: Dominican Republic
I don't worry about what we do, I know we do a lot more than Haitian government and elite. So because we share the island, we are cursed and condemned forever to carry them on our backs? There is not hope for the poorest Dominicans losing their jobs, seeing the wages shrink, less schools' chairs, hospital's beds, less efficient and over burden public systems and on top of everything, being insulted, called racist, exploiters, xenophobes, by Haitians and the far a way world that do not share their burden.
Written by: Micaela, 6 Oct 2009 7:28 PM
From: Dominican Republic
danny00, where do you live? How is still possible that people believe that big Dominican business import Haitians? Haitians were once imported for the sugar fields. Now less than 10% of the Haitians work there, in fact les than a 1/3% of the Haitians in DR work for anybody, but themselves, selling all sort of goods, fruits, vegetable, etc. not to mention children and elderly that don't work neither. I assure you, that few, came here by way of somebody else, except for the nets of Haitians human traffickers operating in Haiti. As Dominican, never forget that the poorest Dominicans are greatly affected by having to share scarce resources with Haitians and gaining nothing from it.
Written by: Micaela, 6 Oct 2009 7:30 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Ok, I finally understand. As DR and USA have the same level of development and resources we should treat our illegal aliens the same way they do, therefore what we are spending is not enough. Never mind that their ratio of illegal aliens is less than 4% of their population and come from all over the world, while ours is -+20% and comes mostly from one country, the poorest of America, where they have not health care, therefore the preventable and controlled deceases are rampant among them and where seems to be unknown the meaning of the word birth control.
Written by: Micaela, 6 Oct 2009 7:31 PM
From: Dominican Republic
yessss sir, we will stand up and be men. let the haitians stay on their knees, crawling toward our country, with one hand holding their children and the other extended to receive for free anything there is in this rich paradise of everlasting resources!!!!!
Written by: Micaela, 6 Oct 2009 7:33 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Josean Haitians are victimized by other Haitians, so? What help that offers to alleviate the problem that their massive presence and use of our resources cause to DR? I changed the words "the people in the Dominican Republic" that do not provide them with jobs, food, clean water, medical care and basic human dignity" As you could see with our situation we are in not condition to take a greater burden. What we have is not enough for our poor people, so you see how they fare forced to share it. Everything is simply worse, for them, the Dominicans that have not responsibility whatsoever with what the Dominican or Haitian elite does, but are penalized for it.
Nobody would keep Dominican and Haitian masses at each other's throats if there were not Haitian masses here.
From: United States, The Lake of Fire
josean how come you being haitian do not speak creole?
From: Dominican Republic, Dando pela en las 5 esquinas
micaela
don't waste your time trying to explain {specially to the one who pretend to be Dominican, yet his words betray him as been a back stabbing haitiana} how can you elbow yourself into the dominican dinner table without expecting to get push back to your place.
No Dominican would ever say this:
" Father Hartley should get the Nobel Prize for speaking truth to power!! ".. Really
don't you know that for every haitian that get discriminated against other 1000 gets work, food and shelter and are educated in dominican schools and universities and enjoy the same benefits as dominicans , 55 millions dollars over 4 yrs for health-care, where is the campaign to celebrate that? .Those who discredit the name of my country and the good will of my people, those who speak LIES about DR are less than animals to me and those who sided or justify with the liars are maggots.
If speaking truth to power was real you'll say the truth about who you really are, maggot
Written by: dagtan, 6 Oct 2009 8:34 PM
From: United States
You know Josean, why do you waste your time trying to bring light to the dark side of the dominican-Haitian issue. These guys do not know what they are talking about when it comes to the root causes of such problem in the Dominican-Haitian problem. The fact that they are willing to recognize that the haitian government treats its citizens like dogs, but fail to recognize that the Dominican government treats its people the same way. I can not even believe that they are insinuating that the Haitian government is any worse than the Dominican government, the indoctrination of an unhealthy, uneducated, hungry and out looking people continues. I am so happy I was able to get out in time and be saved by education. The DR fails to mention that the country benefits from the Haitian presence 10 times more than the meager 55 million they say to have spend on Haitian health which i doubt. I want to see numbers showing that all these people they are talking about are in fact 100% Haitian, con
Written by: dagtan, 6 Oct 2009 8:44 PM
From: United States
i want see to see the data showing that non of these patiens were either mixed or dominican-born haitians, because of they are, that does not count as expenditure on Haitian. i am almost sure that they are counting the Dominica-born citizens as well, maybe we here in NYC should start counting the money we spend on the illegal Dominican population and their offspring. Going back to the benefits of having Haitians in the DR, one, the DR can not complete its work projects without the cheap labor provided by Haitian, two, it can not collect on the millions of dollars from incentive in the sugar, rice, tobacco, banana and mining industries in the country. Finally, it provides the government a scape goat anytime things go wrong. People like MIRABUENO AND old-School-Trinitario are perfect targets and it show how successful they've been. Josean the benefits of info like is that is shows people showing THE WORST FORM OF IGNORANCE, WHICH IS RACISM.
Written by: Micaela, 6 Oct 2009 9:50 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Dagtan Which is the light side of the Dominican-Haitian issue? Yes, our government treats us like dogs; can you explain why do we need foreign dogs to increase our lot or fight us for the bones? No, the Haitian government is not worse than ours, only we are not yet eating dirt cookies, have hospitals caring for Haitians, schools for their children, jobs, precariously, if you will, but basic services -transportation, electricity, clean water, police- vaccination programs and general health care, and more important, we are not going to Haiti to look for those things. No to you, but to me those things tell me that Haitian government is worse and DR situation is better. There are very few Dominican born Haitians here. If you are Haitian, stop telling what USA should do regarding Dominicans and worry about what happens to the Haitians in USA, especially in Florida, the treatment they receive, the blockades to prevent hordes of hungry, sick, illiterate people reach Florida coast.
Written by: Micaela, 6 Oct 2009 9:52 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Continue. But talk is cheap, you said that if we send all Haitians back DR can not complete its work projects without their cheap labor, would not collect on the millions of dollars from incentive in the sugar, rice, tobacco, banana and mining industries in the country. But still there would be DR and Dominicans, forced to do their own work would greatly improve and finally mechanized those industries. You have any idea what would happen in Haiti? Just think about their present situation, not food, no jobs, no water, no health care, no safety. If at least a million and a half suddenly increase their numbers, there would necessarily turn to cannibalism. I hope that you really benefits of info. Info about the real situation of Haiti and why so many are here and more keep coming and adamantly refuse to return. It’s a mater of death and life or its other name, starvation/survival, that knows nothing about racism.
Written by: dagtan, 6 Oct 2009 10:01 PM
From: United States
Micaela, Ilove your argument, my argument is, how are we going to mechanize our industries when there is no skill development on the island. Our schools are only better than the haitian's ones, are you proud of that? do you think that the caliber of education in the DR is capable of mechanizing human labor? Do you actually think that the Government is going to make the necessary investment in nutrition, health and education to be able to achieve mechanization and industrialization? I like that the fact that you are a dreamer, but a dreamer with no facts is simply in fantasy and a fantasy is for fools, Micaela. We are not fairing any different in the DR than Haitians in Haiti, if you compare the two economy and what of each offer its citizens, then you will see what I am talking about. Haitians are in the DR for the same reason that illegals Dominicans are in the U.S. that is to do the jobs that Americans will not do and the Americans know that, so they are not going any where,
Written by: dagtan, 6 Oct 2009 10:08 PM
From: United States
no where, Micaela, I hope you understand that. You must know that your government is not providing you with your natural rights to enjoy the fruits of your country and your right to earn wealth, because only a few have that right realized in the DR. The DR invested $140 million U.S., for the entire country's education for the 2009-2010 school year. Now, follow me on this Micaela, there is about 2 million students in the entire country, if you do the math that comes to about $1,400U.S per child, per school year. Did you know that every other country in the caribbean, except, you guessed it, Haiti out spended the DR in this area. Look this information up on the archives of the DR education system and then search for the rest in the pages of UNICEF and other agencies. Do you think that we are going to be able to mechanized industry with this type investment in education, oh, I forgot, we got the METRO, hurray, we got the METRO, do people become ph.D's when they ride the metro?
Written by: Micaela, 6 Oct 2009 10:27 PM
From: Dominican Republic
We can't enjoy our natural rights to the fruits of our country, so what do you expect for the Haitians here? $140 million U.S for education is not enough, so how our poor people benefit by including Haitian children in our schools? The industries mechanization doesn't depend of the government, but of the private sector; if they suddenly lose the cheap labor provided by Haitians, do you think they would disappear or that there would not be more constructions projects or farming? No, right? Those businessmen would adjust, mechanize and find a way to compete with a lower final cost.
By the way, you should keep reading those interesting UNICEF informs. They have a very interesting one about restavecs and other about some 30,000 Haitians children sold by their parents annually, to work, prostitution or begging in foreign countries, included, of course, DR.
Written by: dagtan, 6 Oct 2009 10:38 PM
From: United States
Micaela, you are actually saying that the private sector is responsible for giving people the skills necessary to compete in our modern economy? You must be from another planet, when and where has the private sector ever created ways for the people of such country to become educated enough to be able to serve in high tech jobs? i do not know of one, since the private sector will simply import such skills, instead of waiting for it to be developed locally and no they will not adjust to losing money either. You have to learn how to make a substantive argument, really, it is scary that you think that way in the 21st century. i'll tell who is responsible for developing and skillful population, the SCHOOLS, Micaela, yes the SCHOOLS are responsible and who is responsible for funding SCHOOLS, the government is responsible for funding a public school system to provide opportunities for all. Finally, do you know that here in the U.S. we spend on average $12k U.S. per child and more,
Written by: dagtan, 6 Oct 2009 10:44 PM
From: United States
and million of those are the sons and daughters of the more than 400k illegal Dominicans that live here. What do you think about that, micaela? Where are my taxes going are they being used for the wrong reasons on the children of illegals? i do not think like that and believe that regardless of your status an education should not be denied since that is one of your natural rights, which can not be denied by humans. The same way I fight for Dominicans here in the U.S. I will for the injustices done upon others, specially in my native land. As far as the prostitution, do you know which country in the caribbean has the higher rate of sex tourism/ do you know which country in the caribbean has the greatest number of prostitutes in western europe? and finally, do you know which country in the caribbean has the highest rate of child trafficking? When you find these answers, then talk about the ills of other countries. lets fix our house first micaela, then we give advise to others.
Written by: Micaela, 6 Oct 2009 10:52 PM
From: Dominican Republic
We knew nothing about mechanized sugar factories; USA established them and we took over. We knew nothing about oil, people from another countries managed it and then we took over, we are good at copying skills. At least Haitians believe the caliber of our education is capable of mechanizing human labor, because with money to send their children some other places, they send them here. Please, please don’t tell me that we are not faring any different in the DR than Haitians in Haiti. That is in the big picture, but only check the income per capita and you would see the difference neat and clearly. Dominicans immigrate for a better life, Haitians, just for a life, not to starve with their children, or die of preventable deceases. That is a world of difference and if you have any doubt, talk to some Haitians workers in DR.
Written by: bearcat, 6 Oct 2009 10:57 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Poeple seem to be forgetting that what you see here is only misdirection now that the heat is on elected officals. The people from Haiti may and I say may be costing the Government a lot of money; but who should be paying their medical bills. Not you the taxpayers but the people who bring them here and work them for nothing.
A point of information that may be helpful to all here Wall-Mart a multi-billion dollar retail chain the the USA has 44,000 employees in the State of California 24,000 of those recieve some form of welfare, which includes trips to the hospital. Americans are mad at the immigrants who are making minimun wages and not at Wall-Mart who makes Billions a year.
Like the Watergate guy saind "follow the money". The money is not with the people of Haiti; they are victims like most of you. You have one hell of an attack only your attacking the wrong target.
Written by: Micaela, 6 Oct 2009 11:01 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Don't you feel sorry telling than in USA, with 300 millions of people there are 400K illegal Dominicans and in DR with 9 million we have almost 2 millions of illegal Haitians? After that, you should say no more. Few of those 400K are children going to school, besides nobody say that we should denied education to Haitians, the idea is to be grateful and recognized it.
Now what prostitution and sex tourism have to do with this? And yes, I know which country in America has the highest rate of child trafficking, Haiti. Children are sold by the own parents to net of traffickers for local and foreign market. I don't talk about the ills of other countries, just about the ills in my country caused by the burden of others.
Written by: Micaela, 6 Oct 2009 11:18 PM
From: Dominican Republic
bearcat, once again, we only see Haitians victims in DR and Dominicans as the culprits. What about Dominican victims, can anybody see their predicament, their sorry situation aggravated by the 'poor Haitian victims'? Yes, they are costing the Government a lot of money and who employs them should pay their medical bills. The problem is that less than 1/3 is privately employed. The majority is liberal employed, that is work for themselves. So who should pay for them and their families, specially for the women and children begging on the streets?
If we "follow the money", the money would lead us to the Haitian elite. And sure I understand that they are victims like most of us, so? We should take them all and share with them our meager resources to greatly worsen our situation while the Haitian elite improves free? Why?
Written by: curlando, 7 Oct 2009 6:58 AM
From: United States
I wonder how much the US spend on Dominicans on welfare and there are a lot of Dominicans on welfare.
Written by: Micaela, 7 Oct 2009 8:45 AM
From: Dominican Republic
the same story, why compare US with DR if the level of development and resources are like day and night as the amount of illegal alliens. 400K illegal dominicans in a population of 300 millions agains 2 millions in a population of 9.
From: United States, Brooklyn
Don't bite the hand that feeds you (HAITIANS)
Written by: bearcat, 7 Oct 2009 12:56 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Written by: Micaela, 6 Oct 2009 11:18 PM
From: Dominican Republic
bearcat, once again, we only see Haitians victims in DR and Dominicans........
Micaela,
Let me be more than clear you are both victims. Your elected and non elctected officials are roobing you blind and now they throw the Hatians at you and you bite.
All your anger is focused on the Hatians not on the people who are robbing you. $55 Million dollars even if correct is nothing. The cost to each of you from the theft of road building funds costs you at least a billion dollars a year.
How much is your economy worth to you personally. If the Hatiians all went home tommorrow and never came back; your economy would stop and you would be hungry.
I have travel extensively in your country and have seen very few, very few Dominicans doing any jobs that put food on the table or build anything. If they left tommorrow a tomato would cost $US10.00 could you buy it.
Written by: bearcat, 7 Oct 2009 1:10 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Micaela and everyone,
Everytime that I am comfronted with a mindless, irrational illegel immigration debate I always refer those people to a short play by Douglas Taylor Ward titled "Day of Absence".
I would reccomend that play to every Dominican who thinks that Hatians come here for a free ride. I have traveled a lot in this country and almost without exception every nasty, filty job I saw has a Haitian doing it.
As much as Dominicans love each other and hate Hatians I know for a fact that if a Dominican would take that job no Hatian would be hired.
Ladies and Gentlemen take action against people who have done something to you. Your elected officals. They are the people who cause your lights to go out. There policies mean that jobs pay nothing in this country so many have to leave. There conduct makes the Dominican school system and outrage. Not the Hatians. You are simple being irrational and racists.
From: United States, Brooklyn
Can I hear a "THANK YOU" JOSEAN and other Haitians or will you just be like the rest of your countrymen... UNGREATFUL!!
From: Dominican Republic, Dando pela en las 5 esquinas
" I have travel extensively in your country and have seen very few, very few Dominicans doing any jobs that put food on the table or build anything. If they left tommorrow a tomato would cost $US10.00 could you buy it. "
what a pathetic argument , now according to expert haitian in dominican affairs that have travel extensively in DR came up with the conclusion that dominicans don't do any work at all and that haitian are this super hard working machine.
you only have to wonder if your people are such a hard working group why is Haiti such a dry desert, why haitians are so obsessed with working hard in DR and not in Haiti.
I tell you what if you take all those ungrateful slimeballs out our economy might take a hit, but at the end we will recover and progress like we always do, in the other hand you put 2 million more haitians in haiti right now and SOMALIA IS GOING TO BE LOOKING LIKE DISNEY WORLD after you load all those hard working haitians back in haiti.
From: Dominican Republic, Dando pela en las 5 esquinas
carlos
this people will never express or show any gratitude, the better you treat them the more they hate you.
If you want them to be thankful you need to handle them like papa doc did for so long and then baby doc a pata limpia.
if only our government instead of spending 55 mil on health-care on this ungrateful people they spend it on a giant electric fence a cross the border with motion sensors that activate a laser ray capable of pulverizing anybody in a 200 yards ratio
From: United States, The Lake of Fire
where did all the hard work that they performed bring them? right across the border and why? because 1% of the original forest remains so on that note find the nearest tree and hug it!!! LOOLOLOL
Written by: dagtan, 7 Oct 2009 4:25 PM
From: United States
You see the problem here is the lack of education onthe part of the dominican population, which is clearly shown here. We Dominicans often look at this problem from a different point of view once we migrate and get an objective education and not subjective and hollow one as the one the offered in Dominican schools. The bottom line that we have approx 400k illegal Dominicans in NYC alone, do not know the nfigure country wide. Let me give you some monetary details, these illegals go to our hospital and use our medical facilities, they attend our schools and create overcrowding, they take jobs awya from our youth and on top of that committ a higher rate of crime than the legal dominican population which twice as large.
This NYC alone, so do the math, on average each child cost the NYC board of education 12k per school year, most hispanic families procreate at a rate of 3-1 when compared to caucasian families. So it is possible that this group produces 100k students,
Written by: dagtan, 7 Oct 2009 4:33 PM
From: United States
there is a total of 1.8 million students in system. So 12x100,000 = 12 million U.S., now this is only thinking about 100k, it is only possible that there is more and not less. On top of that factor in the hospital bills, a visit to the emergency room cost around $1,800x400k = 720k U.S. these numbers is to give you an idea about the spenditure of illegal dominicans living in NYC only.
We are not crying here to get them out of the city or ship them over to the DR, just because they are using our resources, instead we want them to become citizens and contribute to the system that they are sucking the life out of.
Finally, in NYC dominicans post the highest number os members on welfare, more than PR and Afr. American, eventhough these two groups are much larger.
If we here in the U.S. or just NYC will simply replicate what the DR is doing to Haitians and treat Dominicans the same way, then there would be outcry. Plus we are not as inmoral anyways to do such things.
From: Dominican Republic, Dando pela en las 5 esquinas
DAGTAN
could you at least stop saying US when you refer to Dominicans, you are obviously not one of us, so for the sake of a sane exchange of insults at least have the courage to call your own ethnicity when defending your people, don't be like josean who is so ashame of his haitian background that he is starting to believe his own lies.
it is o.k to say that you're really haitian but like to call yourself dominican, you're not the only one, there are 2.5 mil of your compadres doing the same in DR right now.
the only difference is that the ones in DR are a lot more thankful for our generosity and good will than you'll ever be.
From: United States, The Lake of Fire
yes and all of this brothers talk! like the poor josean does not know how to make distinctions. by the way nobody is saying anything about dominicans in the U.S but it is something that i would expect from someone that uses the same defenses for the haitian cause. deport all illegals and pay the dominicans what they are worth. all the haitian dominican pretenders need to be contenders! we already know the ones that are leaving the country but its time to come back home only if we were to solve the problems that we have correctly which has not been happening. dagtan you are the biggest jablador on this website as demonstrated by such examples that nothing to do with the topic at hand. duh why do you think dominicans struggle. we know the government is responsible along with these sugar corporations. their are many issues besides just haitians.
Written by: josean, 7 Oct 2009 5:28 PM
From: United States
SANTO DOMINGO, República Dominicana.- El cardenal asegura que en el país no se maltrata a los haitianos, el presidente del consejo nacional de fronteras asegura que hay una mafia de políticos que contribuye a que nuestros vecinos sean explotados.
A juicio del embajador Radhamés Batista cada vez que se arresta a un traficante de haitianos este es dejado en libertad por estar apadrinado por algún político.
http://www.noticiassin.com/www/in....ay_article&tid=4&aid=9394Written by: Lautaro, 7 Oct 2009 6:22 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
The difference, dagtan, is that the US is the stanging world's sole superpower, while the DR is only a third world colonial rock. To compare us with them is the same as comparing an ant with an elephant, so you might as well drop the comparison, cuz' if you haven't realized it yet, pal, we have to put our own house in order and fulfill our own duties to our fellow citizens FIRST before playing Mother Theresa with our neighbours next door. The only thing that we would do if we committed the lunacy of assuming the solution to their social ills with all the other problems we have on our own plate would be to sink with them in the bottomless abyss.
Written by: Lautaro, 7 Oct 2009 6:33 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Next thing we know, you and the other bleeding hearts here will make the idiotic assumption that we can go toe to toe against that superpower in a conventional war. Please, don't believe all that crap that our press says about this being a "Nueva Yol chiquito". LOL
From: United States
Micaela said: "If we "follow the money", the money would lead us to the Haitian elite. And sure I understand that they are victims like most of us, so? We should take them all and share with them our meager resources to greatly worsen our situation while the Haitian elite improves free? Why?"
Well Micaela, these anti-Dominican mob wants DR to give citizenship to every Haitian that sets a foot in DR (eventually every one of them will leave Haiti behind and inhabit DR) and rather see DR and its poor sink to the bottom of the ocean.
Not only that but, have anybody notice how these anti-Dominicans are stirring up discord among us and raise against the government so to emulate Haiti political chaos? Instigating the DR masses to rise against our politicians and business groups?
Written by: Micaela, 7 Oct 2009 7:59 PM
From: Dominican Republic
dagtan, what the lack of education in DR has to do with the situation in Haiti that push masses of hungry Haitians to survive in DR? What you mean is once you Haitians migrate, you could care less if everybody in Haiti starve. And please stop talking about "our hospitals and medical facilities, schools, jobs, resources or anything else that doesn’t exist in Haiti. Yes, Hispanic families procreate at a rate of 3-1, while Haitians do it 6-12, so you can see what is in store for us. If US replicate what DR 'do to Haitians' they would take two million of us and don't deport them, but let then run the place freely and without complains, unlike you, we would be very grateful. Now if we return all your people to Haiti as old_school_trinitario, told you, SOMALIA IS GOING TO BE LOOKING LIKE DISNEY WORLD compared to Haiti and cannibalism would be rampant. So be grateful we keep them here and start thanking us for it.
Written by: dagtan, 7 Oct 2009 8:02 PM
From: United States
Hey, Lautaro I agree with you 100%, it is not fair to compare the DR with the U.S. However, it is important to mention the immigration issues since both countries are dealing with the issue of illegal immigration. just because the U.S. is the superpower, illegal immigration does not have a different meaning or effect on the population at large. I have always indicated that if the DR feel that it is imminent for the illegal haitians to be deported, then by all means, they should be deported, but do it in a human and organized manner. Many families are being separated due to unlawful deportation practices. See illegal immigrants in the U.S. will often plenty of children because they know that people will not allow the parents to be deported while the children stay behind. That is one of the reason that see a large number of homeless haitian children in the streets of the DR. As for the blinded like OLD_SCHOOL_TRINITARIO, MIRABUENO, you should always be proud of having,
Written by: dagtan, 7 Oct 2009 8:09 PM
From: United States
people like me represent our country in the U.S. at a very high professional level. it is both sad and often embarassing to see how some of you here simply resort to the last and only argument when you see that your argument is not holding water, right away the other person is either not dominican or haitian. Where is that ignorance coming from, why you just can not have a fair argument and prove your point. you clearly know that your argument will not hold water any where you go except your narrow mind. Just so you know, i happen to be one of the few Dominican High School Principals in NYC and one that is always working hard for the future of our people. My school is leading edge on bilingual and esl strategies and graduates the highest number of hispanic (majority dominican) new comer students in NYC. Stop simply calling people Haitian if they disagree with you, you sound so freaking ignorant that is freaking embarassing to even be dominican. In the past I tried to put,
Written by: dagtan, 7 Oct 2009 8:12 PM
From: United States
together a forum, separate from this one. A forum that those of us who live in the NYC area can actually meet sometime and have these fantastic exchanges and maybe, just maybe come up with a fair and humanistic solution, but what happened, only one e-mailed me back. That was just one who was not afraid of showing his insight and confidence. Stop hiding behind the computer and if you have no guts to come out, then show some freaking respect and make a smart argument instead of simply trying to end a loosing argument by calling the other person Haitian. for your information that does not invalidate the value and strength of their argument, it simply makes you look like an ASS.
Written by: Lautaro, 7 Oct 2009 8:23 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
I'm all for humanistic solutions, provided that we don't have to sacrifice national interests (be them territorial, political or economic ones) for the sake of them. I don't know if you're aware of this, but although the haitian leadership have talked about good and fraternal neighborhood on the last half a century, guess what? at the end of the day, they'll keep looking for number one, that is, looking to preserve their national interests first and foremost, everything else be damned. Why should we act differently when everybody else on this blighted world haven't done so in the first place? I'll tell it to you in good spanish: No vale la pena vestir a un santo si en el proceso tienes que desvestir a otro. En otras palabras, es de muy mal gusto quitarles el pan de la boca a nuestros hijos solamente porque el vecino no fue lo suficientemente responsable como para llevar comida a su mesa. Cuidese mucho, camarada, ya que con todo y diferencias, yo sigo respetando su input en este foro.
Written by: Lautaro, 7 Oct 2009 8:28 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
As Voltaire would say: "I might not share your ideas, but I would willingly lay down my life in order to defend your right to express them".
Written by: Micaela, 7 Oct 2009 9:06 PM
From: Dominican Republic
So Mr. dagtan, you are Dominican, in spite of not having wasted a line sympathizing with the poor Dominicans suffering the greatest burden of the massive Haitian presence, except to declare them victims, as Haitians are. With Dominicans of your caliber, the countries sponsoring NGO to keep the Haitians as far away from them as possible, are wasting resources.
By the way, what are the children learning in your school? Maybe that dividing adds? Let's say something like this: You poor children have been lied to, this is the real way Math works (at least in DR) If we have $100 to educate 50 Dominican children and to them we add 25 Haitians, then the $100 immediately turns into $250, therefore greatly beneficiating the total of 75 children? And that principle applies to everything, from health care to basic services. Right?
From: Dominican Republic, Dando pela en las 5 esquinas
dagtan
The only argument here is that the news article at hand mention the fact that the DR spent 55 mil on health-care for the poor hard working innocent haitians and so far not even one of you have come out to express some gratitude or at least say something positive about my country since we are the main caretakers of your brethren.
Instead el haitiano tapao josean the first thing that comes out of his mouth:
"How much did the Hatian's cheap labor contribute to the Dominican economy in that same period, is the real question? NOBODY gives nothing for nothing"
EL DOMINICANO ES MUCHAS COSAS, PERO MAL AGRADECIDO NUNCA
SI EMBARGO AL HAITIANO TU LE DAS LA MANO Y TE QUIEREN ARRANCAR EL BRAZO
Y SI NO LE DAS LA MANO TE QUIERE MATAR
and one more thing, I'll take your invitation to get from behind my PC and meet you, say your name the name of the high school you teach.
pa que descubras si es menta lo que chupa la burra.
From: United States, The Lake of Fire
why should i waste my time con el mamaguevo? he already is calling all of us out como nadie tiene bolas!
"As for the blinded like OLD_SCHOOL_TRINITARIO, MIRABUENO, you should always be proud of having",
do you honestly believe the things that spew out of your mouth como veneno! you are making points that have nothing to do with the article at hand. you are the devils advocate by the remarks that you make. i know the country that i represent and yes it is not perfect but it definetely is not the way you paint it. you are such a haitian that no prieto can ever be proud of. such a beautiful article will only be flipped by a fool like you in order to benifit your agenda of potraying us as some savage racist society. worry about your country before you start hablando del fundillo. ojiste mai? such a sad imposter!
From: United States, The Lake of Fire
"A forum that those of us who live in the NYC area"
okay their is a dominican imposter named raquel cepeda. look her up online and you will find her website. you will get along great with her. she has the same views that you do. de la soul is the one you need to be hanging with because on this site you are at the wrong place mr dagtan.
Written by: dagtan, 8 Oct 2009 9:14 AM
From: United States
Lautaro, yes once again I totally agree with you about the efects of illegal immigration especially ona third world country. For your information the international community is fully aware of that and they do not deny the burden that Haitians are putting on the already weak and under developed condition in the DR. What the international community is having trouble with is the way in which the process is being conducted. The people in DR are being brain washed, not excluding my family, which often sounds like some of you. Now many of my family is entrenched in media cicles of Santiago, people like Garcia, Betance, Vargas, who work for local T.V. stations as reporters and producer think in the same radical way as some of the people here. I am sure that many families are being broken due to illegal deprotation practices, my family live right across the national supermarket in Santiago and you see these kids running toward your car to ask for money or food, these is hearbreaking, cont
Written by: dagtan, 8 Oct 2009 9:20 AM
From: United States
every third world country has those, but in the DR I have seen a really large number, much larger than most of the other Islands which I have been and some very porr Asian countries. To make even worse I think that they are all Haitian, because they look Haitian to me, I might wrong for assuming that 100% are Haitian. These children are naked, dirty, bruised and treated like garbage by drivers. I have seen drivers simply drive thru and these children have to move out of the way, otherwise they'll be mowed down. This is a human life and it must respected regardless if they Haitian or any other race. Once again, if they must deported do it, by all means necessary, as long as those means are in accordance to the human rights acts and the respect for human life and family preservation. In my school and any other school in NYC there is a policy not to ask for migratory papers to anyone walking through our doors, so I do not know the exact number of illegal dominican students that we,
Written by: dagtan, 8 Oct 2009 9:24 AM
From: United States
are currently serving. However, out our graduating class last year, 41 students were not able to attend college because they had not documentation. However, these students are often reffred to our local church groups to assist in geting documentations for them and that way they can go to college. The chnaces of getting documents through the church organization which is funded viua private funds is 60% at this point. It is unfortunate that can not help all of them, but we try our best. For those of you want to help in getting involved with the ALIANZA DOMINICANA, THE DOMINICAN INSTITUTE, AND DONATE, PLEASE E-MAIL me at dagsah@optonline.net. Hopefully, by helping others here you will see that it is possible to do right in the DR.
From: United States
First of all dagtan,
You do not talk or think like a Dominican, it doesn't surprise me!
Second, your number on the illegal Dominicans are wrong and deviated
Third, there are not too many illegal Dominicans school age.
Four, of the few Dominican illegal that reach the USA soil, many of them for financial reason choose not go to college for they come to USA to work and make MULA.
So stop using other nationality numbers and statistic on the Dominican population!
Well at least I have to give you credit for knowing a bit about our culture (not to our advantage though)
From: United States
And lastly a DOMINICAN will never, never, never write 14 , yes 14 long looong posts to get their anti Dominicanism pro-Hatian ideas.
God how far are these people going!? How far are wegoing to put up with all their crap.
From: Dominican Republic, Dando pela en las 5 esquinas
ponpon
at least he change his tone on hi 13th and 14 post to a more friendly diatribe.
Written by: antonioj, 8 Oct 2009 2:39 PM
From: Canada, home safe
Listen guys if the figure are real or close, should we not at the minimum acknowledge that and be greatful, I do not understand all the fuss after all DR is not under any obligation to do so.
Written by: dagtan, 8 Oct 2009 3:01 PM
From: United States
Instead of you guys bitching about having to swallow a large pill of truth, why don't you just look up the info or simply go to each state school report and read them. Again I do n ot know if some of you actually has the education or training to read and make sense of such reports. Finally, call me what you want, but I will never stand up for injustices even if that means to go after my own country. That is the reason why we have never being able to to have a just and transparent government since Lily. Finally, I love writing, and especially here, since all most of you do is write phrases with no substance to support your argument. Oh, I forgot, you have in the back of your mind, anytime I am loosing an argument, I do not need to be informed, I can just call them anti-dominican or Haitia. That is what we call CAP OUT IN THE PROFESSIONAL WOLRD. I am still waiting for e-mails people, get them coming. BTW, those numbers can always be either higher or lower, go figure.
Written by: bearcat, 8 Oct 2009 3:42 PM
From: Dominican Republic
I am sorry that hatred has caused you to miss the point of my note. If your government wishes to misdirect criticism from itself all that is necessary is to find an issue true or not that has to do with Haitians and hatred takes over. Not reason hatred.
The Haitians are not the reason you have no power supply. They are not the reason that your school system is so poor that technical companies can not locate here. They are not responsible for your being robbed of your beaches.
Any enemy of my enemy of my enemy is my friend. From the rules of war. The people who are robbing you are both the same the elite and government.
From: Dominican Republic, Dando pela en las 5 esquinas
dagtan
I think micaela already brilliantly undressed you on her posts and with a well writen rebuttal unmasked your anti-dominican rethoric trying to turn an act of kindness from my people into a Haitian entitlement case.
You are about to complete the cycle, the one every haitian troll go through everytime they try to argue their sense of ownership of my country.
1st. Is denial or concealment of your ethnic background to be able to attack from the rear
****** check
2nd. Outlining your academic prowess just so people can constitute the distinction between you and the rest of your illiterate compadres. ****** check
3rd. After been debunked and undressed in public you'll soon close it out by calling all dominicans women prostitutes. ****** coming soon
After finishing the cycle you'll be banned from DT just to later come back with another nick.
seen it like a 100 times already.
Written by: bearcat, 8 Oct 2009 4:11 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Prior to Katrina in New Orleans there was a group of very poor white Americans who lived across the river from the 9th ward a historically poor Black section of the city. If asked who is the problem in New Orleans they would point to the Black people across the river. And worse they thought themselves superior to the Black across the river and better treated by their government.
When the storm hit the levee broke on both sides of the river and everything was lost on both sides. Government provided very little assistance to people on either side of the river but they did get the Crescent and the French quarter back up and running in a hurry. Guess who lives in the Crescent and the French Quarter? If you guessed “the elite” ; a gold star for you! “The only way to hold a man down in a ditch is to get in the ditch with him”. You hate the Haitians and they hate you and all around you make money but the two of you.
From: United States, The Lake of Fire
"Oh, I forgot, you have in the back of your mind, anytime I am loosing an argument, I do not need to be informed, I can just call them anti-dominican or Haitia. That is what we call CAP OUT IN THE PROFESSIONAL WOLRD"
you forgot to put mal agradecido del maximo! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.
From: United States, The Lake of Fire
trinitario that was some of the funniest stuff i have ever read. k comico!
Written by: dagtan, 8 Oct 2009 5:57 PM
From: United States
bearcat, I love Tim Wise as well, he is one of my heroes. I have used some of his materials when presenting about culturally sensitive classroom in the U.S. I am currently working on an article titled "The need for culturally sensitive classroom in suburban schools" I'll be more than happy to share it with you. I really have a lot of respect for you, just by the fact that you read Tim Wise or has listened to him. Finally, I had the privilege to meet him and Pedro Noguera at NYU this past summer.
Written by: Lautaro, 8 Oct 2009 8:01 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Written by: Lautaro, 8 Oct 2009 8:02 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Written by: Lautaro, 8 Oct 2009 8:06 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
excerpt from the first article:
DOMINGUITO Y SUS AMIGOS LES GUSTA EL PAÍS
Dominguito, Francia y Lucinda Valdez, Rosemón y otros niños entrevistados que viajan desde Cachimán, Belladere, y otros poblados de Haití, señalan que les gusta estudiar y vivir en República Dominicana “porque este es un país lindo”. Dominguito dijo que cuando sea grande será policía para trabajar en República Dominicana, especialmente en la frontera. El sueño de cada uno de los niños con quienes hablaron los reporteros de LISTÍN DIARIO es estudiar una profesión en las universidades dominicanas y quedarse trabajando aquí, porque señalan que es muy difícil vivir en Haití. (Cont...)
Written by: Lautaro, 8 Oct 2009 8:08 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
(cont...) “Yo preferí sacrificarme, porque aquí me enseñan muy bien. Aquí he aprendido mucho y vale la pena”, agregó Lucinda Valdez. Con los niños haitianos que tienen menos tiempo inscritos en el centro educativo, fue difícil conversar porque no entendían lo que se les preguntaba, como es el caso de Rosemón, de 15 años. La directora de la escuela dijo que fue preciso bajarlo de curso, porque se estaba atrasando en el nivel que estaba, debido a la dificultad del idioma."
And then, we dominicans are racists. Yeah, right, and I'm the stinking king of France. Give us a break, for the love of God!!
Written by: dagtan, 8 Oct 2009 8:24 PM
From: United States
Great article Lautaro, it is amazing how we do the same thing here when it comes to newly arrived Dominican kids. I mean it is very sad, since there is time that I have to place a child that was in the 12th grade in the DR all the way down to 9th grade again. I really hate doing it, but we decide based on a placement test that is provided by the state. This morning I met with a family from Moca and the same topic was addressed. Moreover, this article reminds of me and my siblings when my mother left Santiago for a better future and we followed 4 years later. It does not matter where or how, migration is always painful and ugly, what makes it easier or worth while is what the host country does for those immigrants. Finally, I am glad that they are having a good experience in the mist of their travels and adaptation to the new lifestyle. I experienced this when me and my siblings landed at JFK 20 years ago later this month.
Written by: Lautaro, 8 Oct 2009 8:32 PM
From: Dominican Republic, Santo Domingo
Then that means that you're one of those that went out on the second wave (the first one being on the 60's and 70's, because of the repression of Balaguer's Twelve Years). No offense buddy, but I have heard that the wave of the 80's and 90's was the dominican version of the cuban marielitos. Does this stereotype holds any ground, may I ask?
Written by: dagtan, 8 Oct 2009 11:10 PM
From: United States
Lautaro you are right I am a first generation third waver, my friend. I have to admit that I did not believe that you know about the different phases of the Dominican diaspora and their purpose. Yes, in many ways the 80's and 90's was the mariel of the DR, it was clearly designed to relieve the government of internal pressures due to deep poverty and anger among the citizens. Those days saw the highest number of visas granted to Dominicans per capital in its history. my mother was a nurse back home and was not able to fee us and our father was and still a piece of shit, so he does not count. Therefore, she made a goal to do something about and was able to migrate via family members and years later she was granted a conditional visa for 10 years with the option of permanent residency. So, yes, if you this is true in that respect, but not true on the respect of the kind of people that migrated. the DR mariel was made up of poor and upset people, while cuba's was something else.
Written by: Micaela, 9 Oct 2009 10:04 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Dagtan you would never stand up for injustices, thefore is just for our children that our schools are overcrowded, lowering the quality of education they can get. The same way is just that our poorest people loose their jobs and see their wages get smaller, and hospital, public transportation, basic services, worsen, because the massive Haitian presence in DR. you know,
I really like your sense of justice and I can see that you do believe that dividing adds. the more kids in our school system, the more it would improve; the more Haitians sharing our resources, the more resources we would have, something like the biblical multiplication of bread and fish.
Written by: Micaela, 9 Oct 2009 10:04 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Dagtan you would never stand up for injustices, thefore is just for our children that our schools are overcrowded, lowering the quality of education they can get. The same way is just that our poorest people loose their jobs and see their wages get smaller, and hospital, public transportation, basic services, worsen, because the massive Haitian presence in DR. you know,
I really like your sense of justice and I can see that you do believe that dividing adds. the more kids in our school system, the more it would improve; the more Haitians sharing our resources, the more resources we would have, something like the biblical multiplication of bread and fish.
Written by: Micaela, 9 Oct 2009 10:04 AM
From: Dominican Republic
Dagtan you would never stand up for injustices, thefore is just for our children that our schools are overcrowded, lowering the quality of education they can get. The same way is just that our poorest people loose their jobs and see their wages get smaller, and hospital, public transportation, basic services, worsen, because the massive Haitian presence in DR. you know,
I really like your sense of justice and I can see that you do believe that dividing adds. the more kids in our school system, the more it would improve; the more Haitians sharing our resources, the more resources we would have, something like the biblical multiplication of bread and fish.
Written by: dagtan, 9 Oct 2009 3:10 PM
From: United States
Micaela, hispanics (mostly dominicans) make 34% of the school were I am. The argument that you are making is made to me everyday by concerned caucasian parents who feel that the rigor and quality of instruction is being put in jeopardy due to increasing number of minority in our school. They are also, very concerned about the high cost of educating ESL/Bilingual students, since their classroom size needs to be smaller, therefore, requiring more teaching staff than regular education classrooms. So if I was as nascisistic as you are, then I will say no to every minority (mostly dominicans) not to attend our school and discourage those new families from seaking an education and demand their rights as human beings. These families do not have to present any form of migration documents, nor are they treated as lesser, just becuase they are immigrant. You are basically supporting a system of repression toward the Haitian kids. The bigots that I have living in my school comm will,
Written by: dagtan, 9 Oct 2009 3:13 PM
From: United States
love you and will take your attitude toward the haitians back home and apply it to the dominicans in their backyard. Micaela, many people in the DR do not know what Dominicans go through in orde to get a good education even in the U.S. It is because of advocates like me that many Dominican or minority students are able to enjoy the rights that are owed to them as human beings. I know I am an ultra liberal, and I believe that everyone under the sun has the right to the best education and health the country has to offer, regardless of their condition. Hate me for it, call me what ever name you want, but I have morals and ethics that are based on doing the right thing for people and not doing things the right way to benefit one over the other.
Written by: Micaela, 9 Oct 2009 3:52 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Not Mr. Dagtan, free basic education for all was in place in USA way before you got into the educational system. And what you refuse to acknowledge is that is not possible to compare the two countries and situations. To get to USA an illigal kid have to take a plane and his parents to expend a lot of money and chances are he is stopped, therefore there have to be a limited amount, whatever you want us to believe. To come here, the Haitian kid only has to hold his mother or father hand and start walking east and of course they will always reach their destiny, therefore the numbers are overwhelming.
Yes, everybody under the sun has the right to the best education and health the country has to offer, which apply to dominican children in their own country. Their right is being badly hurt, robbing them of opportunities to be decently educated, so people like you can accuse them for their lack of education and worse, making them future emigrants, to be mistreat some place else.
Written by: Micaela, 9 Oct 2009 3:52 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Not Mr. Dagtan, free basic education for all was in place in USA way before you got into the educational system. And what you refuse to acknowledge is that is not possible to compare the two countries and situations. To get to USA an illigal kid have to take a plane and his parents to expend a lot of money and chances are he is stopped, therefore there have to be a limited amount, whatever you want us to believe. To come here, the Haitian kid only has to hold his mother or father hand and start walking east and of course they will always reach their destiny, therefore the numbers are overwhelming.
Yes, everybody under the sun has the right to the best education and health the country has to offer, which apply to dominican children in their own country. Their right is being badly hurt, robbing them of opportunities to be decently educated, so people like you can accuse them for their lack of education and worse, making them future emigrants, to be mistreat some place else.
Written by: dagtan, 9 Oct 2009 5:00 PM
From: United States
Micaela, I have already posted my e-mail, please e-mail or send me a personal message via the forum. I would like to direct you to some sources and give you links to other, so you can see the light. At the end of the day things are not as you think they are nor the way that the government wants you to see them. You need to search further in order to understand what I am talking about. I understand that you might not have the knowledge about the U.S. since you have not been educated here and work here at levels were you will hear and be part of very important conversations. But I will be more than happy to guide the some sources that I have access via some of our local universities. I truly admire your passion and desire to end the Haitian problem in the DR, but you are going the wrong way about it. Micaela, the Hatians will never go, it is a necessary evil for the DR government, the government needs the problem in order for it survive. Please, shoot me an e-mail.
Written by: Atabey, 12 Oct 2009 3:05 AM
From: United States
According to the Pew Research Center as of 2007 there were 1.200.000 Dominicans in the USA. Check out the site. They have stats for Cubans, PR, Mex., and El Salvador. Go to
http://pewhispanic.orgWritten by: dagtan, 12 Oct 2009 9:40 AM
From: United States
Atabey, thank you for posting some info. It is important to note that this number only reflect the ones that participated in the census since they were not afraid and had papers. It is estimated that are a much illegal dominicans as legal in the U.S. NYC along has an estimated 400k illegal Dominicans. Again, the number could lower or higher, it is an estimation, and it was estimated back in 1998, so I do not know what is the latest estimation. We are up for another census coming up. Also, remember that this number could be affected by people simply failing to respond to the census.
Written by: bearcat, 12 Oct 2009 3:48 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Micale, Dagtan, and others;
Would you listen to the voice of reason from an old man who has been on both sides of this issue? In my country we were not illegal we were reminders of the evil of slavery who so how managed to survive and therefore to bear witness against them; having said that you would assume that I have a bias for Haitians. I will allow for that to get you to hear all that I have to say. The US civil war was not about slavery it was about money. At the time of the civil war Southern planters were the riches people in the United States, but the North needed their capital to industrialize and feared agriculture based wealthy class on their borders who would be free to broker their wealth with foreign interest. The money could not be controlled so therefore it was war. Slavery was not an issue it was about money.
Written by: bearcat, 12 Oct 2009 3:48 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Micale, Dagtan, and others;
Would you listen to the voice of reason from an old man who has been on both sides of this issue? In my country we were not illegal we were reminders of the evil of slavery who so how managed to survive and therefore to bear witness against them; having said that you would assume that I have a bias for Haitians. I will allow for that to get you to hear all that I have to say. The US civil war was not about slavery it was about money. At the time of the civil war Southern planters were the riches people in the United States, but the North needed their capital to industrialize and feared agriculture based wealthy class on their borders who would be free to broker their wealth with foreign interest. The money could not be controlled so therefore it was war. Slavery was not an issue it was about money.
Written by: bearcat, 12 Oct 2009 3:48 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Micale, Dagtan, and others;
Would you listen to the voice of reason from an old man who has been on both sides of this issue? In my country we were not illegal we were reminders of the evil of slavery who so how managed to survive and therefore to bear witness against them; having said that you would assume that I have a bias for Haitians. I will allow for that to get you to hear all that I have to say. The US civil war was not about slavery it was about money. At the time of the civil war Southern planters were the riches people in the United States, but the North needed their capital to industrialize and feared agriculture based wealthy class on their borders who would be free to broker their wealth with foreign interest. The money could not be controlled so therefore it was war. Slavery was not an issue it was about money.
Written by: dagtan, 12 Oct 2009 4:08 PM
From: United States
Thank you bearcat for you clear message. I also, wanted to thank you for trying to induce reason into this argument that has really gotten out control and gone and came to the issue at hand. many here fail to understand that the haitian problem in DR is a necessary evil, they do not want to hear it. they simply blame the Haitians, not knowing that these poor people are being used more by the receiving government than the sending government. the haitians are a football that thee entities use in the island of hispaniola when ever is convenient. First, the haitian government allows as many people as possible to leave the country in order to relieve pressure, otherwise, many of these youngster are future potential rebels. The Dominican corporations used them as a source of cheap labor and uninsured workers. Finally, the Fernandez government use them as a scape goat for its own misgivings and ineffectiveness. Therefore, the problem is protected by these three entities.
Written by: bearcat, 12 Oct 2009 6:11 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Micale, Dagtan, and others;
Would you listen to the voice of reason from an old man who has been on both sides of this issue? In my country we were not illegal we were reminders of the evil of slavery who so how managed to survive and therefore to bear witness against them; having said that you would assume that I have a bias for Haitians. I will allow for that to get you to hear all that I have to say. The US civil war was not about slavery it was about money. At the time of the civil war Southern planters were the riches people in the United States, but the North needed their capital to industrialize and feared agriculture based wealthy class on their borders who would be free to broker their wealth with foreign interest. The money could not be controlled so therefore it was war. Slavery was not an issue it was about money.
Written by: bearcat, 12 Oct 2009 6:11 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Micale, Dagtan, and others;
Would you listen to the voice of reason from an old man who has been on both sides of this issue? In my country we were not illegal we were reminders of the evil of slavery who so how managed to survive and therefore to bear witness against them; having said that you would assume that I have a bias for Haitians. I will allow for that to get you to hear all that I have to say. The US civil war was not about slavery it was about money. At the time of the civil war Southern planters were the riches people in the United States, but the North needed their capital to industrialize and feared agriculture based wealthy class on their borders who would be free to broker their wealth with foreign interest. The money could not be controlled so therefore it was war. Slavery was not an issue it was about money.
Written by: bearcat, 12 Oct 2009 6:12 PM
From: Dominican Republic
I have friend and I am uncle to all his children who is Dominican; he got sent back for dope; but he impressed me as a good and decent man who is at home with his women and children when he is not at work. With what I have seen with the “my babies daddy group” he will be exempted from the exam when we hire in the DR, because he has proven that he is a man. But I digress; when his last child was born his wife shared a hospital bed with three other poor Dominican women and worse he could not go to the room and see her or his child. The Doctors may give you all sorts of BS reasons; but the real reason is that if Dominican saw what their government thought of them would react and make changes. He is an honorable man and a Dominican and the health care afforded his wife and his newborn child would be enough to make me homicidal.
Written by: bearcat, 12 Oct 2009 6:12 PM
From: Dominican Republic
In spite of it protest the government of the DR does not give a dam about Haitians in the DR they are order’s from their master to let it be. One of my countrymen was in a border town to see a lady friend and he witness border guard’s helping Haitian over the fence into this country.
Your country needs their labor badly because the elite have failed to modernize agriculture and therefore need cheap labor with no rights in a court of law so that they can work them for nothing. To keep the Haitians in place they need the “racist dynamic”, you people who attack without cause and hate for no reason. That solves two problems for the elite they have an army of haters that they do have to pay and it diverts the citizen’s attention from the problems that are hurting them. As I have told you before you are being “played”; if there were no Haitians to hate you would turn you angry toward the people, “your countrymen who are robbing you.”
Written by: bearcat, 12 Oct 2009 6:13 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Now let’s talk about what you perceive to be the Haitian problem. Haitian momma’s bring there children here to the DR, “by their dress tail’s for the same reason your mother carried you the say way. They want their children to be feed and educated so that they will not have to live as their parents did. Is that not what you want for your children? If that be so and if you consider yourselves a member of the world community, then the Haitians are not your enemy but your allies; they want what you want for your children and they are willing to pay the price to have that, including your hatred.
Dominican play this mind game with themselves in the DR that they are not African but Indians which is a lie; but when they hit the US, in the mind of white folks they become Black; subject to poor schools, housing and demised expectations; in fact they become Haitians in the USA. Because they speak Spanish they buy into another form of hatred; hatred of non-English speakers.
Written by: bearcat, 12 Oct 2009 6:14 PM
From: Dominican Republic
They quickly find out that the Dominican education system was total bullshit when 11th grander are put in the 8th grade and college graduates are pushing a broom; and suddenly they become Black. Weather there are Haitians in the DR or Dominicans in the USA you have more that unites you than that divides you. Therefore the BS needs to stop with the understanding that you have a common enemy those who think that the world or money is a “zero-sum game.”
About me! I am not some assh__e who talks and talks. I was a “green face” a US Navy Special Forces officer assigned to “the trouble” in Nicaragua. My job was to destroy enemies of the elite and to restore order. My team was very good at our job, we were so good that a reward of $US 100,000.00 was offered for my head. As a rule we did not take prisoners’, we executed everyone; but we fu_K-up and took one man who saved my life if not my soul.
Written by: bearcat, 12 Oct 2009 8:24 PM
From: Dominican Republic
He looked like me a half-bred who was fighting his government to make sure that his children could have an education and a chance at life. It was after our “come to Jesus meeting” that I knew that I was on the wrong side. In my life since then I have spent 10% of my time and 10% of my income providing for the education and wellbeing of children. If want to have me as an enemy do something that is not in the best interest of children and health care is in the best interest of children.
Always remember that “ an enemy of my enemy is my friend.”
Written by: bearcat, 12 Oct 2009 8:32 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Thank you Dagtan,
I thought I was the only reasonable person here. I need look at the DR all I have to do is look at home. Illegals are all over the state I once called home California and the same viel hatred is upon them. But they are there because someone makes money because they are here in California. BUT IT GIVES THE POLITICANS SOMEONE TO BLAME FOR THEIR FAILURES.
Of the $US 55 Million what amount went to doctors and nurces who would be in private practive without government hosipitals. Of that amount how much went to suppilers who without the Hatitians would have no market. Always follow the money in a reasoned mannner.
Written by: dagtan, 12 Oct 2009 9:38 PM
From: United States
bearcat, I really like your story, very good and powerful.
Written by: ediliog, 13 Oct 2009 7:07 PM
From: United States
Why not just built one or two hospital in Haiti and employ 50% Dominican doctors and nursing for a year or two. However, just to make things interesting offer internship to other doctors from other OAS members. Eventually the OAS member will contribute to the cost of the hospital...
One rule: The hospital(s) can't be under Haitian control.
Written by: dagtan, 13 Oct 2009 8:26 PM
From: United States
Ediliog, if that was possible, then, it will be better for the Dominican doctors and nurses to be imported to the U.S. as trinidad and tobago, jamaica and the bahamas university does. There is a great need for nurses here in the U.S. since most american kids want to go into highly skilled professions that do not include the health care industry.
Dominicans should take advantage of their ability to be bilingual in the two most spoken languages in the U.S. This will be a great business opportunity for anyone who is willing to create U.S. recognized nursing programs in the DR for exportation purposes only.
Think about it, they could start making about 40k per year, which still lower than those who graduate from american schools. but such salary will be a heck of a good salary and very helpful to the family left behind.
this model has been in place for years between the U.S. and jamaica, bahamas and others. The majority of nurses in the NYC area are from the caribbean.
Written by: Micaela, 16 Oct 2009 9:41 PM
From: Dominican Republic
That is the question. Why not just built one or two or 10 hospital in Haiti and provide Haitians with health care so they don’t have to come to DR to share the resources of the poorest Dominicans? Where is all the money of the international donations? I know is a very racist , xenophobic and inhuman question to ask, because the only thing allowed is to be grateful for the Haitians who provide doctors and nurses with jobs and suppliers with market. Once again the poorest Dominicans can face a pride of hungry lions, they don’t matter at all, because they are nor Haitians, neither they have money.
Written by: dagtan, 16 Oct 2009 10:33 PM
From: United States
Micaela, go to the streets and organize. The poor people in DR are not worth to cents, therefore, the business men and the government is not concerned with their ply. They have been able to placate your anger by having divert your anger toward the haitians and not the ones who are allowing them to come in.
Don't you understand that this is not a political stunt by the Haitian government. This is a brilliant strategy o how to keep their government living another day. Remember, Balaguer did ti beautifully, by having the U.S. commit to granting the DR the largest number of visas in order for him to aid them during the 1965 invasion. The system was designed to rid the country of pressure and give the government another day to live until things could be controlled. Your family and my benefited from such agreement.
There was a huge influx of Dominicans coming to NY during the 70s'80' and finally 90's. The immigration displaced the puerto ricans in the NY areas. So you see, the
Written by: dagtan, 16 Oct 2009 10:39 PM
From: United States
difference is that the DR has not invaded haiti, nor signed such agreements, but the haitian government knows that it works, since they saw it working on the other side.
The U.S. stopped the preferential visas treatment toward the DR in the late 90's, since it was no longer necessary due to the ending of the cold war and with zero signs of russia ever returning.
You must organize, since the haitians will not give it rats ass what you think, or how much you dehumanize them or think that they are inferior to you, they do not care, what they care is that they have another day live, it is human nature.
Is not that I am not sensitive to the ply of the poor, since i was below the poverty line when I migrated, but people need to wake up and smell the coffee, they are not going away, by CRYING on these forums. Develop action steps organizations. take Zonia Pierre as an example, she has been able to develop a pretty influential organization to protect the haitian's human rights, bu
Written by: dagtan, 16 Oct 2009 10:43 PM
From: United States
but dominicans who should be the first ones developing effective organizations to end the situation are sitting on the sidelines waiting for the government like always.
you seem to be very passionate about the issue and your passion is appreciated, but if you do not turn such passion into actions, them shut up. That is the reason why Dominicans no longer mobilize, because they have these loud mouths that are always talking, but never do anything about the problem.
ORGANIZE, ORGANIZE AND JUSTICE AND RIGHTFULNESS SHALL COME. ORGANIZE AND STOP CYING ABOUT THE PROBLEM, PLEASE.
Written by: Micaela, 16 Oct 2009 11:51 PM
From: Dominican Republic
You got that right “The poor people in DR are not worth to cents” the worthy ones are all Haitians. But you are wrong, my anger is rightly directed toward the ones who are, not only allowing them to come in, but pushing them here; Haitian government and elite. It that were not the case, not Haitians would come here and nobody in DR would have to allow them to, because simple they would not be interested.
It’s not a political stunt, neither a brilliant strategy to keep their government living another day, they have been living very comfortably for 209 years. The Haitians is not comparable to any other country or people in America, because nowhere else a elite have had such an iron control of resources and people, starving them shamelessly. Sorry, your family might have, but family did not benefit from any agreement, we have never needed it. Cont-
Written by: Micaela, 16 Oct 2009 11:53 PM
From: Dominican Republic
How comes that USA was only interested in DR and grand us preferential visas, when Haiti being poorer should have been more at risk of listening to Fidel songs? We don’t need to organize the way you want us, so it takes 200 years and there would be nothing to organize for, and more important, wemay be stopped. But I promise that when Dominicans see the light, their peril, Haitians will really care what we think.
I am from Santiago and you claiming to be member of such prominent families, is surprising than 20 years ago you were below the poverty line and became an economic refugee in NY and get there your education (what happen with Santiago exclusive schools?) Were you a poor relative, half Haitian? That would explain it all. Anyway, I already told you, don’t tell me what to do, and shut up yourself up, stop telling lies about you, your situation and intentions
Written by: dagtan, 17 Oct 2009 9:41 AM
From: United States
Micaela, once again you got it all wrong. I never indicated that I come prominent families in the DR, since our economic comfortability came as a result of migration. Yes, I was an economic refugee as far as your family not benefiting from the migratory agreements between the DR and U.S., if it was not by the remittances that send every year, which BTW account for the second largest infusion of liquidity into the Dominican economy. The DR will not able to survive if such stimulus is one day interrupted, so go and do your homework. How dod you think that the diaspora has such an strong voice on what happens in the DR. We do not agree with dehumanization, we want a system that is respectable to both parties.
Micaela, it shows that your education is not as solid as I though for one second. The fact that you think that you do not need to organize is sad, because the organization of people is what count. Again, stop the complaints and do something about, we are doing something,
Written by: dagtan, 17 Oct 2009 9:48 AM
From: United States
about the situation. You know what the majority of the Dominicans, at least the educated ones in academia and organizations such as the Dominican studies institute? We want a comprehensive system and are actively working towards that. If you do not agree with that, then organize a counter active organization, that will reject such ideas and recommendations from certain dominican groups in the diaspora.
We work closely with the democrats of NY in dealing with issues ranging from aid during natural disasters to political issues including the haitian question.
I will not go after you for making one of the ignorant comments ever from a person that have declared herself to be poor and say that she has no need for the U.S. I do not lowball anyone here, since my posting are base on knowledge and nothing else. Micaela, it is a political discourse, do not take it personal, it hurst your argument and you will be complaining for the rest of your life with no result. WALK THE WALK, P
Written by: Atabey, 17 Oct 2009 8:55 PM
From: United States
dagstan,
Let me see if I can get at the fundamental points of Micaela and other like minded posters.
I think we would all have a more fruitful flow of ideas if we could establish some benchmarks.
Y= yes N=no
1. Haitian migration into DR should be controlled. Y/N
2. Haitians that want to go to DR for work must ask and receive such right under a joint .... ....Haitian/DR Workers' Permit Program. Y/N
2. Haitian migrants in the DR should be ID and those unable to demonstrate legal visas would be ...given notice to appear before an immigration judge. Judge to determine deportation. Y/N
3. International United Nations troops to monitor along side both nations troops the border ....between Haiti and DR. Y/N
4. Contracts between Haitian workers and Dominican businesses to be monitor by NGO selected by ....a joint Haitian/DR team. Judges assigned to deal with discrepencies. Y/N
5. United Nations to help reintegrate deported Haitians in Hait
Written by: dagtan, 17 Oct 2009 10:35 PM
From: United States
Atabey, totally agree. I hope that she takes your post into consideration, since she already rejected mine because I place the charge on the DR to initiate the process of a comprehensive migration system. She simply wants them out period and I agree, but system must be put in place to protect the ones that will fall under some of your ideas and those that already have dominican born children. These children need their nationality, and the nationality of a person is determined by the territory in which they were born, not their immigration status or ethnic group.
Written by: Pepe32, 21 Oct 2009 2:20 PM
From: Dominican Republic
1. Haitian migration into DR should be controlled. Y
2. Haitians that want to go to DR for work must ask and receive such right under a joint .... ....Haitian/DR Workers' Permit Program.Y
2. Haitian migrants in the DR should be ID and those unable to demonstrate legal visas would be ...given notice to appear before an immigration judge.Y Judge to determine deportation. Automatic
3. International United Nations troops to monitor along side both nations troops the border ....between Haiti and DR. Y
4. Contracts between Haitian workers and Dominican businesses to be monitor by NGO selected by ....a joint Haitian/DR team. Judges assigned to deal with discrepencies.( Biased options)
5. United Nations to help reintegrate deported Haitians in Haiti YYYYY
6. United Nations and Haiti to reimburse DR for money spent on their citizens Y
7.Deportation of all Haitians without legal documents Y
8. Strict prison penalties for Dominicans involved in human Trafficking Y
9. Prison for Haitian
Written by: Pepe32, 21 Oct 2009 2:21 PM
From: Dominican Republic
repeat offenders Y
Written by: Pepe32, 21 Oct 2009 2:31 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Atabey ,benchmarks have to be produced by consensus and while most of your points hit the mark some are "poisoned" in that they lead in a specific direction when there are in fact various options.
NGO's are mistrusted by us "like minded" individuals because we don't trust the NGO's due to verified bias in detriment to the DR's interests so option 4 would not be acceptable,also the simple act of giving any foreign or external agency or government in actions taken INSIDE the DR is not acceptable because any contracts to be arranged would have to comply with Dominican law and Dominican interests not the interests or perceived interests of others.
#2 Deportation -appearance in front of a judge should be only for protocol unless the Haitian citizen can prove their legality in DR the order of deportation should be issued immediately and carried out without hesitation.
All in all I consider your post a good beginning and I don't think most of the Dominicans in this forum would oppose
Written by: Pepe32, 21 Oct 2009 2:32 PM
From: Dominican Republic
the majority of your points .
Written by: HONEST, 22 Oct 2009 3:06 PM
From: Netherlands Antilles
keep me posted
Written by: Atabey, 6 Nov 2009 11:39 AM
From: United States
Pepe32
Add a 10th point and let's make this the end all to all these debates. whenever someone wants to know what Dominicans think, give them-and that goes for all of us-THE LIST. If some one comes up with a better idea, so be it, we're include or revise our 10 Point Plan.
Written by: Atabey, 6 Nov 2009 11:46 AM
From: United States
Perhaps we should take a few points and debate the pros and cons. Vote on it and so on, creating a 10 or so point position that would become the basis for ending these silly-mostly- back and forth exchanges.
Written by: Pepe32, 6 Nov 2009 9:36 PM
From: Dominican Republic
I have no problems discussing this or any other issue but just one point ,if this is to be a Dominican list Haitian opinions don't matter nor are they to be taken into account.
From: Haiti
well haiti provided rich companies in the Dominican Republic with cheap labor thereby making and corporations expand and of course more haitians go to Dominican Republic as tourists as well . .improvements are being made in Haitian hospitals in the city but near the border is tough. This rich haitian businessman who own a supermarket went to dominican republic I think for cancer surgery but he flew to miami for follow up.
From: Dominican Republic, Dando pela en las 5 esquinas
here we go again with the cheap labor card
some of this dudes sound like a broken record with the same song day after day after day.
is there any other contribution made by haitians other than cheap labor.
how about paying taxes or NOT cutting trees or maybe not begging so much on the streets of santo domingo, i haven't see a dominican beggar in years, i mean, even begging is been affected by the swarm.
Written by: josean, 16 Nov 2009 2:23 PM
From: United States
" i haven't see a dominican beggar in years,'
You have seen the results of LIE-onel Fernandez foreign excursions then!
From: Dominican Republic, Dando pela en las 5 esquinas
talking about haitian beggars!!
Written by: josean, 16 Nov 2009 4:16 PM
From: United States
Your so predictable, simplistic and uncreative.
Written by: Pepe32, 16 Nov 2009 4:57 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Your so predictable, simplistic and uncreative.
Cuco,stop looking in the mirror..
Written by: josean, 16 Nov 2009 5:06 PM
From: United States
Now who is writing the boring and unfunny short quips?
Written by: Pepe32, 16 Nov 2009 5:16 PM
From: Dominican Republic
Josie ,when I write in a higher form you complain so I have to reach waaaaaaaay down to your level and emit grunts and short simple quips so you can understand ..
Anyway piti I will let you have the last bark ...have fun
Written by: josean, 16 Nov 2009 6:04 PM
From: United States
I promise to do all in my power to have Guillermo Moreno consider you as ambassador to Whitelandia!
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However, when you think about it, that is nothing compared to what our politicians are stealing from us, MONTHLY.
memorize this words above so you can remember them the next time the name of my country comes out of your ungratefull mouth, the next time you feel like biting the hand that feed and now heals you.
mal agradecidos que son estos perros , esa pared hay que subirla pero ya
I am more Dominican than both of you put together.
Being Dominican doesn’t equal being anti-Haitian nor does it make you more of a Dominican, what it does however, is make you less of a human being!
I am amazed at the people who get upset when those of us criticizes the policies of our corrupt government, "because the world reads these post and they make DR look bad," but they are tolerant of this racist anti-Haitian xenophobia, which really makes us look bad and backward and uneducated to the entire world!
What hypocrites!
"Haitian xenophobia, which really makes us look bad and backward and uneducated to the entire world!"
you have got to be kidding me. who gives a crap about the entire world which has enough racism of its own. i think you are the one who is uneducated and backward. due yourself a favor an pick up a book an learn so you don't continue to sound ignorant.
Josean you better start learning creole
Thank you for your last post it is an excellent example of what I expressed in my last comments!
Lets spent more of our medical money where is need, our kids mental and medical needs.
Again we are not a developed country; our population needs have to be met first.
I agree with you 100%!
But our Haitian brothers are victims of the unregulated laws of supply and demand, which neither they nor the Dominican masses have control over. Our national economic policy is dependent on the super exploitation of workers, so when Dominicans rebel the powers that be turn a blind eye to undocumented Haitian immigrants to supply the labor needs of the business cronies. Just like the US business community does with undocumented workers in the US.
I would support immediately, an organized human repatriation of all undocumented Haitians, while simultaneously giving jail time and serious financial fines to ANYONE caught employing an undocumented immigrant, be they Haitian or any other nationality.
Lets see if all the xenophobic politicians and there supporters lobby for such a law to be enacted!
see you do not read what i post but yet you use zenophobic excuses. obviously since you got caught up in linguistics and still missed the point. haitian labor being illegal labor would have to mean all illegals.
The sicko continues to call himself dominican even when he's debunked as been a hating haitiana.
my dirty socks are more dominican than you are, no dominicano in his right mind will side with fake reports that undermine our country good name and people, any REAL dominican will stand by quisqueya no matter what people say, without even considering the consequence,but you wouldn't understand that because YOU'RE NOT DOMINICAN, so stop talking as if you were, you are not fooling anyone, besides who the f*ck is talkning about haitian labor? If haitians weren't so hungry and desperate maybe they will not slave themselves so easily, i mean some haitian work for shelter in DR right now.
the only reason you bring that up is just to justify the fact that the DR is the nation that has treated haiti with the most generosity and tolerance. And like any other troll can't stand the fact that DR is your benefactor.
I enjoy the self-incrimination on your parts!
Now, that world that reads these post knows about the situation in Haiti and does nothing to help them. Why should we, taking the burden alone, care about them?
LAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
almost forget most of them pay no TAXES,,, give nothing back to the the united states.... use the health care systems when they are sick..... drain what every they can from thom this country....
if one gringo was to get sick in lets say santo domingo..... they could not even get one GLASS OF WATER..... ok.. enough said for now....
$30,000us or more to fly back to the states.....wow! big numbers if u get sick in the dr....
for Dominicans is impossible to talk about the cost of supporting a population of more than 2 million " surplus or unwanted people" without been called xenophobic racist or anti-haitiano.
We are haiti # 1 life line and they know it, specially the 2 millions + that live in DR, I understand that Haiti is also of great importance for our nation and i think every human been should be treat it with respect and dignity, the problem i have with the one who insist of calling himself dominicano and everytime is time to stand up for DR he does the opposite, he stab us in the back and sides and justify the campaign of lies mounted abroad against the same people he call his own.
for them the descrimination only comes from dominicans, is sort of like a fetish they have.
some post their moronic comments just to get a harsh response and mastubate reading the insults.
Dominican have been the care takers of that putrid pile they call haiti for more than a 100 yrs now
hasta cuando????
HAVE ONE FRIEND HE HAS A BUILDING IN POP WORTH LOTS OF MONEY 15 HOMES IN THE STATES..... I CAN GO ON AND ON HE HAS LOTS OF MONEY....... OK! HIS WIFE GETS SECTION 8.... HIM AND HIS WIFE DRAIN EVERY PENNY THEY CAN FROM THE CITY OF NEW YORK .... SOCIAL SERVICES, FOOD STAMPTS,,,, COME ON STOP YOUR BULL-SH T AND CRYING ON THIS SITE... STAND UP AND BE MEN IF U CAN DO THIS..EVERY THING COMES TO DOMINICANS ALWAYS THEY HAVE THEIR HANDS OUT.... IM DOMINICAN BUT I WORK HARD FOR MY DOLLARS.... BUT I SLEEP WELL AT NIGHT.... AND I FEEL GOOD INSIDE ALL THE TIME...AND I DONT CRY LIKE ONE CHILD....
Then they get offened when you call them out as racists!
But again they keep proving my point!
Micaela,
First of all thank you for your respectful comment and question. Secondly, I did not say that all of us Dominicans are ant-Haitians, xenophobic or racists, I am not, my family is not and I hope you are not as many other person here on DT aren’t either. But it would be also misleading to deny that many of us are and try to deny it.
I agree that Haitians are victimized by other Haitians as it’s equally true that Dominicans are victimized by other Dominicans and Mexicans are victimized by other Mexicans.
continued:
The question is who are "the people in Haiti" and "the people in the Dominican Republic" it is not your average Haitian or Dominican who are essentially powerless, it is the rich elites who exploit both of us and discard them to the Dominican Republic or to the Sharks in El Canal de La Mona!
The elites of both countries could resolve this problem, but it is economically beneficial to both of them to keep things the way they are, while trying to keep us the Dominican and Haitian masses at each others throats as they laugh all the way to bank!
Nobody would keep Dominican and Haitian masses at each other's throats if there were not Haitian masses here.
don't waste your time trying to explain {specially to the one who pretend to be Dominican, yet his words betray him as been a back stabbing haitiana} how can you elbow yourself into the dominican dinner table without expecting to get push back to your place.
No Dominican would ever say this:
" Father Hartley should get the Nobel Prize for speaking truth to power!! ".. Really
don't you know that for every haitian that get discriminated against other 1000 gets work, food and shelter and are educated in dominican schools and universities and enjoy the same benefits as dominicans , 55 millions dollars over 4 yrs for health-care, where is the campaign to celebrate that? .Those who discredit the name of my country and the good will of my people, those who speak LIES about DR are less than animals to me and those who sided or justify with the liars are maggots.
If speaking truth to power was real you'll say the truth about who you really are, maggot
By the way, you should keep reading those interesting UNICEF informs. They have a very interesting one about restavecs and other about some 30,000 Haitians children sold by their parents annually, to work, prostitution or begging in foreign countries, included, of course, DR.
Poeple seem to be forgetting that what you see here is only misdirection now that the heat is on elected officals. The people from Haiti may and I say may be costing the Government a lot of money; but who should be paying their medical bills. Not you the taxpayers but the people who bring them here and work them for nothing.
A point of information that may be helpful to all here Wall-Mart a multi-billion dollar retail chain the the USA has 44,000 employees in the State of California 24,000 of those recieve some form of welfare, which includes trips to the hospital. Americans are mad at the immigrants who are making minimun wages and not at Wall-Mart who makes Billions a year.
Like the Watergate guy saind "follow the money". The money is not with the people of Haiti; they are victims like most of you. You have one hell of an attack only your attacking the wrong target.
Now what prostitution and sex tourism have to do with this? And yes, I know which country in America has the highest rate of child trafficking, Haiti. Children are sold by the own parents to net of traffickers for local and foreign market. I don't talk about the ills of other countries, just about the ills in my country caused by the burden of others.
If we "follow the money", the money would lead us to the Haitian elite. And sure I understand that they are victims like most of us, so? We should take them all and share with them our meager resources to greatly worsen our situation while the Haitian elite improves free? Why?
Don't bite the hand that feeds you (HAITIANS)
From: Dominican Republic
bearcat, once again, we only see Haitians victims in DR and Dominicans........
Micaela,
Let me be more than clear you are both victims. Your elected and non elctected officials are roobing you blind and now they throw the Hatians at you and you bite.
All your anger is focused on the Hatians not on the people who are robbing you. $55 Million dollars even if correct is nothing. The cost to each of you from the theft of road building funds costs you at least a billion dollars a year.
How much is your economy worth to you personally. If the Hatiians all went home tommorrow and never came back; your economy would stop and you would be hungry.
I have travel extensively in your country and have seen very few, very few Dominicans doing any jobs that put food on the table or build anything. If they left tommorrow a tomato would cost $US10.00 could you buy it.
Everytime that I am comfronted with a mindless, irrational illegel immigration debate I always refer those people to a short play by Douglas Taylor Ward titled "Day of Absence".
I would reccomend that play to every Dominican who thinks that Hatians come here for a free ride. I have traveled a lot in this country and almost without exception every nasty, filty job I saw has a Haitian doing it.
As much as Dominicans love each other and hate Hatians I know for a fact that if a Dominican would take that job no Hatian would be hired.
Ladies and Gentlemen take action against people who have done something to you. Your elected officals. They are the people who cause your lights to go out. There policies mean that jobs pay nothing in this country so many have to leave. There conduct makes the Dominican school system and outrage. Not the Hatians. You are simple being irrational and racists.
Can I hear a "THANK YOU" JOSEAN and other Haitians or will you just be like the rest of your countrymen... UNGREATFUL!!
what a pathetic argument , now according to expert haitian in dominican affairs that have travel extensively in DR came up with the conclusion that dominicans don't do any work at all and that haitian are this super hard working machine.
you only have to wonder if your people are such a hard working group why is Haiti such a dry desert, why haitians are so obsessed with working hard in DR and not in Haiti.
I tell you what if you take all those ungrateful slimeballs out our economy might take a hit, but at the end we will recover and progress like we always do, in the other hand you put 2 million more haitians in haiti right now and SOMALIA IS GOING TO BE LOOKING LIKE DISNEY WORLD after you load all those hard working haitians back in haiti.
carlos
this people will never express or show any gratitude, the better you treat them the more they hate you.
If you want them to be thankful you need to handle them like papa doc did for so long and then baby doc a pata limpia.
if only our government instead of spending 55 mil on health-care on this ungrateful people they spend it on a giant electric fence a cross the border with motion sensors that activate a laser ray capable of pulverizing anybody in a 200 yards ratio
This NYC alone, so do the math, on average each child cost the NYC board of education 12k per school year, most hispanic families procreate at a rate of 3-1 when compared to caucasian families. So it is possible that this group produces 100k students,
We are not crying here to get them out of the city or ship them over to the DR, just because they are using our resources, instead we want them to become citizens and contribute to the system that they are sucking the life out of.
Finally, in NYC dominicans post the highest number os members on welfare, more than PR and Afr. American, eventhough these two groups are much larger.
If we here in the U.S. or just NYC will simply replicate what the DR is doing to Haitians and treat Dominicans the same way, then there would be outcry. Plus we are not as inmoral anyways to do such things.
could you at least stop saying US when you refer to Dominicans, you are obviously not one of us, so for the sake of a sane exchange of insults at least have the courage to call your own ethnicity when defending your people, don't be like josean who is so ashame of his haitian background that he is starting to believe his own lies.
it is o.k to say that you're really haitian but like to call yourself dominican, you're not the only one, there are 2.5 mil of your compadres doing the same in DR right now.
the only difference is that the ones in DR are a lot more thankful for our generosity and good will than you'll ever be.
A juicio del embajador Radhamés Batista cada vez que se arresta a un traficante de haitianos este es dejado en libertad por estar apadrinado por algún político.
http://www.noticiassin.com/www/in....ay_article&tid=4&aid=9394
Well Micaela, these anti-Dominican mob wants DR to give citizenship to every Haitian that sets a foot in DR (eventually every one of them will leave Haiti behind and inhabit DR) and rather see DR and its poor sink to the bottom of the ocean.
Not only that but, have anybody notice how these anti-Dominicans are stirring up discord among us and raise against the government so to emulate Haiti political chaos? Instigating the DR masses to rise against our politicians and business groups?
By the way, what are the children learning in your school? Maybe that dividing adds? Let's say something like this: You poor children have been lied to, this is the real way Math works (at least in DR) If we have $100 to educate 50 Dominican children and to them we add 25 Haitians, then the $100 immediately turns into $250, therefore greatly beneficiating the total of 75 children? And that principle applies to everything, from health care to basic services. Right?
The only argument here is that the news article at hand mention the fact that the DR spent 55 mil on health-care for the poor hard working innocent haitians and so far not even one of you have come out to express some gratitude or at least say something positive about my country since we are the main caretakers of your brethren.
Instead el haitiano tapao josean the first thing that comes out of his mouth:
"How much did the Hatian's cheap labor contribute to the Dominican economy in that same period, is the real question? NOBODY gives nothing for nothing"
EL DOMINICANO ES MUCHAS COSAS, PERO MAL AGRADECIDO NUNCA
SI EMBARGO AL HAITIANO TU LE DAS LA MANO Y TE QUIEREN ARRANCAR EL BRAZO
Y SI NO LE DAS LA MANO TE QUIERE MATAR
and one more thing, I'll take your invitation to get from behind my PC and meet you, say your name the name of the high school you teach.
pa que descubras si es menta lo que chupa la burra.
"As for the blinded like OLD_SCHOOL_TRINITARIO, MIRABUENO, you should always be proud of having",
do you honestly believe the things that spew out of your mouth como veneno! you are making points that have nothing to do with the article at hand. you are the devils advocate by the remarks that you make. i know the country that i represent and yes it is not perfect but it definetely is not the way you paint it. you are such a haitian that no prieto can ever be proud of. such a beautiful article will only be flipped by a fool like you in order to benifit your agenda of potraying us as some savage racist society. worry about your country before you start hablando del fundillo. ojiste mai? such a sad imposter!
okay their is a dominican imposter named raquel cepeda. look her up online and you will find her website. you will get along great with her. she has the same views that you do. de la soul is the one you need to be hanging with because on this site you are at the wrong place mr dagtan.
You do not talk or think like a Dominican, it doesn't surprise me!
Second, your number on the illegal Dominicans are wrong and deviated
Third, there are not too many illegal Dominicans school age.
Four, of the few Dominican illegal that reach the USA soil, many of them for financial reason choose not go to college for they come to USA to work and make MULA.
So stop using other nationality numbers and statistic on the Dominican population!
Well at least I have to give you credit for knowing a bit about our culture (not to our advantage though)
God how far are these people going!? How far are wegoing to put up with all their crap.
ponpon
at least he change his tone on hi 13th and 14 post to a more friendly diatribe.
The Haitians are not the reason you have no power supply. They are not the reason that your school system is so poor that technical companies can not locate here. They are not responsible for your being robbed of your beaches.
Any enemy of my enemy of my enemy is my friend. From the rules of war. The people who are robbing you are both the same the elite and government.
dagtan
I think micaela already brilliantly undressed you on her posts and with a well writen rebuttal unmasked your anti-dominican rethoric trying to turn an act of kindness from my people into a Haitian entitlement case.
You are about to complete the cycle, the one every haitian troll go through everytime they try to argue their sense of ownership of my country.
1st. Is denial or concealment of your ethnic background to be able to attack from the rear
****** check
2nd. Outlining your academic prowess just so people can constitute the distinction between you and the rest of your illiterate compadres. ****** check
3rd. After been debunked and undressed in public you'll soon close it out by calling all dominicans women prostitutes. ****** coming soon
After finishing the cycle you'll be banned from DT just to later come back with another nick.
seen it like a 100 times already.
When the storm hit the levee broke on both sides of the river and everything was lost on both sides. Government provided very little assistance to people on either side of the river but they did get the Crescent and the French quarter back up and running in a hurry. Guess who lives in the Crescent and the French Quarter? If you guessed “the elite” ; a gold star for you! “The only way to hold a man down in a ditch is to get in the ditch with him”. You hate the Haitians and they hate you and all around you make money but the two of you.
you forgot to put mal agradecido del maximo! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.
Sin comentarios.
DOMINGUITO Y SUS AMIGOS LES GUSTA EL PAÍS
Dominguito, Francia y Lucinda Valdez, Rosemón y otros niños entrevistados que viajan desde Cachimán, Belladere, y otros poblados de Haití, señalan que les gusta estudiar y vivir en República Dominicana “porque este es un país lindo”. Dominguito dijo que cuando sea grande será policía para trabajar en República Dominicana, especialmente en la frontera. El sueño de cada uno de los niños con quienes hablaron los reporteros de LISTÍN DIARIO es estudiar una profesión en las universidades dominicanas y quedarse trabajando aquí, porque señalan que es muy difícil vivir en Haití. (Cont...)
And then, we dominicans are racists. Yeah, right, and I'm the stinking king of France. Give us a break, for the love of God!!
I really like your sense of justice and I can see that you do believe that dividing adds. the more kids in our school system, the more it would improve; the more Haitians sharing our resources, the more resources we would have, something like the biblical multiplication of bread and fish.
I really like your sense of justice and I can see that you do believe that dividing adds. the more kids in our school system, the more it would improve; the more Haitians sharing our resources, the more resources we would have, something like the biblical multiplication of bread and fish.
I really like your sense of justice and I can see that you do believe that dividing adds. the more kids in our school system, the more it would improve; the more Haitians sharing our resources, the more resources we would have, something like the biblical multiplication of bread and fish.
Yes, everybody under the sun has the right to the best education and health the country has to offer, which apply to dominican children in their own country. Their right is being badly hurt, robbing them of opportunities to be decently educated, so people like you can accuse them for their lack of education and worse, making them future emigrants, to be mistreat some place else.
Yes, everybody under the sun has the right to the best education and health the country has to offer, which apply to dominican children in their own country. Their right is being badly hurt, robbing them of opportunities to be decently educated, so people like you can accuse them for their lack of education and worse, making them future emigrants, to be mistreat some place else.
http://pewhispanic.org
Would you listen to the voice of reason from an old man who has been on both sides of this issue? In my country we were not illegal we were reminders of the evil of slavery who so how managed to survive and therefore to bear witness against them; having said that you would assume that I have a bias for Haitians. I will allow for that to get you to hear all that I have to say. The US civil war was not about slavery it was about money. At the time of the civil war Southern planters were the riches people in the United States, but the North needed their capital to industrialize and feared agriculture based wealthy class on their borders who would be free to broker their wealth with foreign interest. The money could not be controlled so therefore it was war. Slavery was not an issue it was about money.
Would you listen to the voice of reason from an old man who has been on both sides of this issue? In my country we were not illegal we were reminders of the evil of slavery who so how managed to survive and therefore to bear witness against them; having said that you would assume that I have a bias for Haitians. I will allow for that to get you to hear all that I have to say. The US civil war was not about slavery it was about money. At the time of the civil war Southern planters were the riches people in the United States, but the North needed their capital to industrialize and feared agriculture based wealthy class on their borders who would be free to broker their wealth with foreign interest. The money could not be controlled so therefore it was war. Slavery was not an issue it was about money.
Would you listen to the voice of reason from an old man who has been on both sides of this issue? In my country we were not illegal we were reminders of the evil of slavery who so how managed to survive and therefore to bear witness against them; having said that you would assume that I have a bias for Haitians. I will allow for that to get you to hear all that I have to say. The US civil war was not about slavery it was about money. At the time of the civil war Southern planters were the riches people in the United States, but the North needed their capital to industrialize and feared agriculture based wealthy class on their borders who would be free to broker their wealth with foreign interest. The money could not be controlled so therefore it was war. Slavery was not an issue it was about money.
Would you listen to the voice of reason from an old man who has been on both sides of this issue? In my country we were not illegal we were reminders of the evil of slavery who so how managed to survive and therefore to bear witness against them; having said that you would assume that I have a bias for Haitians. I will allow for that to get you to hear all that I have to say. The US civil war was not about slavery it was about money. At the time of the civil war Southern planters were the riches people in the United States, but the North needed their capital to industrialize and feared agriculture based wealthy class on their borders who would be free to broker their wealth with foreign interest. The money could not be controlled so therefore it was war. Slavery was not an issue it was about money.
Would you listen to the voice of reason from an old man who has been on both sides of this issue? In my country we were not illegal we were reminders of the evil of slavery who so how managed to survive and therefore to bear witness against them; having said that you would assume that I have a bias for Haitians. I will allow for that to get you to hear all that I have to say. The US civil war was not about slavery it was about money. At the time of the civil war Southern planters were the riches people in the United States, but the North needed their capital to industrialize and feared agriculture based wealthy class on their borders who would be free to broker their wealth with foreign interest. The money could not be controlled so therefore it was war. Slavery was not an issue it was about money.
Your country needs their labor badly because the elite have failed to modernize agriculture and therefore need cheap labor with no rights in a court of law so that they can work them for nothing. To keep the Haitians in place they need the “racist dynamic”, you people who attack without cause and hate for no reason. That solves two problems for the elite they have an army of haters that they do have to pay and it diverts the citizen’s attention from the problems that are hurting them. As I have told you before you are being “played”; if there were no Haitians to hate you would turn you angry toward the people, “your countrymen who are robbing you.”
Dominican play this mind game with themselves in the DR that they are not African but Indians which is a lie; but when they hit the US, in the mind of white folks they become Black; subject to poor schools, housing and demised expectations; in fact they become Haitians in the USA. Because they speak Spanish they buy into another form of hatred; hatred of non-English speakers.
About me! I am not some assh__e who talks and talks. I was a “green face” a US Navy Special Forces officer assigned to “the trouble” in Nicaragua. My job was to destroy enemies of the elite and to restore order. My team was very good at our job, we were so good that a reward of $US 100,000.00 was offered for my head. As a rule we did not take prisoners’, we executed everyone; but we fu_K-up and took one man who saved my life if not my soul.
Always remember that “ an enemy of my enemy is my friend.”
I thought I was the only reasonable person here. I need look at the DR all I have to do is look at home. Illegals are all over the state I once called home California and the same viel hatred is upon them. But they are there because someone makes money because they are here in California. BUT IT GIVES THE POLITICANS SOMEONE TO BLAME FOR THEIR FAILURES.
Of the $US 55 Million what amount went to doctors and nurces who would be in private practive without government hosipitals. Of that amount how much went to suppilers who without the Hatitians would have no market. Always follow the money in a reasoned mannner.
One rule: The hospital(s) can't be under Haitian control.
Dominicans should take advantage of their ability to be bilingual in the two most spoken languages in the U.S. This will be a great business opportunity for anyone who is willing to create U.S. recognized nursing programs in the DR for exportation purposes only.
Think about it, they could start making about 40k per year, which still lower than those who graduate from american schools. but such salary will be a heck of a good salary and very helpful to the family left behind.
this model has been in place for years between the U.S. and jamaica, bahamas and others. The majority of nurses in the NYC area are from the caribbean.
Don't you understand that this is not a political stunt by the Haitian government. This is a brilliant strategy o how to keep their government living another day. Remember, Balaguer did ti beautifully, by having the U.S. commit to granting the DR the largest number of visas in order for him to aid them during the 1965 invasion. The system was designed to rid the country of pressure and give the government another day to live until things could be controlled. Your family and my benefited from such agreement.
There was a huge influx of Dominicans coming to NY during the 70s'80' and finally 90's. The immigration displaced the puerto ricans in the NY areas. So you see, the
The U.S. stopped the preferential visas treatment toward the DR in the late 90's, since it was no longer necessary due to the ending of the cold war and with zero signs of russia ever returning.
You must organize, since the haitians will not give it rats ass what you think, or how much you dehumanize them or think that they are inferior to you, they do not care, what they care is that they have another day live, it is human nature.
Is not that I am not sensitive to the ply of the poor, since i was below the poverty line when I migrated, but people need to wake up and smell the coffee, they are not going away, by CRYING on these forums. Develop action steps organizations. take Zonia Pierre as an example, she has been able to develop a pretty influential organization to protect the haitian's human rights, bu
you seem to be very passionate about the issue and your passion is appreciated, but if you do not turn such passion into actions, them shut up. That is the reason why Dominicans no longer mobilize, because they have these loud mouths that are always talking, but never do anything about the problem.
ORGANIZE, ORGANIZE AND JUSTICE AND RIGHTFULNESS SHALL COME. ORGANIZE AND STOP CYING ABOUT THE PROBLEM, PLEASE.
It’s not a political stunt, neither a brilliant strategy to keep their government living another day, they have been living very comfortably for 209 years. The Haitians is not comparable to any other country or people in America, because nowhere else a elite have had such an iron control of resources and people, starving them shamelessly. Sorry, your family might have, but family did not benefit from any agreement, we have never needed it. Cont-
I am from Santiago and you claiming to be member of such prominent families, is surprising than 20 years ago you were below the poverty line and became an economic refugee in NY and get there your education (what happen with Santiago exclusive schools?) Were you a poor relative, half Haitian? That would explain it all. Anyway, I already told you, don’t tell me what to do, and shut up yourself up, stop telling lies about you, your situation and intentions
Micaela, it shows that your education is not as solid as I though for one second. The fact that you think that you do not need to organize is sad, because the organization of people is what count. Again, stop the complaints and do something about, we are doing something,
We work closely with the democrats of NY in dealing with issues ranging from aid during natural disasters to political issues including the haitian question.
I will not go after you for making one of the ignorant comments ever from a person that have declared herself to be poor and say that she has no need for the U.S. I do not lowball anyone here, since my posting are base on knowledge and nothing else. Micaela, it is a political discourse, do not take it personal, it hurst your argument and you will be complaining for the rest of your life with no result. WALK THE WALK, P
Let me see if I can get at the fundamental points of Micaela and other like minded posters.
I think we would all have a more fruitful flow of ideas if we could establish some benchmarks.
Y= yes N=no
1. Haitian migration into DR should be controlled. Y/N
2. Haitians that want to go to DR for work must ask and receive such right under a joint .... ....Haitian/DR Workers' Permit Program. Y/N
2. Haitian migrants in the DR should be ID and those unable to demonstrate legal visas would be ...given notice to appear before an immigration judge. Judge to determine deportation. Y/N
3. International United Nations troops to monitor along side both nations troops the border ....between Haiti and DR. Y/N
4. Contracts between Haitian workers and Dominican businesses to be monitor by NGO selected by ....a joint Haitian/DR team. Judges assigned to deal with discrepencies. Y/N
5. United Nations to help reintegrate deported Haitians in Hait
2. Haitians that want to go to DR for work must ask and receive such right under a joint .... ....Haitian/DR Workers' Permit Program.Y
2. Haitian migrants in the DR should be ID and those unable to demonstrate legal visas would be ...given notice to appear before an immigration judge.Y Judge to determine deportation. Automatic
3. International United Nations troops to monitor along side both nations troops the border ....between Haiti and DR. Y
4. Contracts between Haitian workers and Dominican businesses to be monitor by NGO selected by ....a joint Haitian/DR team. Judges assigned to deal with discrepencies.( Biased options)
5. United Nations to help reintegrate deported Haitians in Haiti YYYYY
6. United Nations and Haiti to reimburse DR for money spent on their citizens Y
7.Deportation of all Haitians without legal documents Y
8. Strict prison penalties for Dominicans involved in human Trafficking Y
9. Prison for Haitian
NGO's are mistrusted by us "like minded" individuals because we don't trust the NGO's due to verified bias in detriment to the DR's interests so option 4 would not be acceptable,also the simple act of giving any foreign or external agency or government in actions taken INSIDE the DR is not acceptable because any contracts to be arranged would have to comply with Dominican law and Dominican interests not the interests or perceived interests of others.
#2 Deportation -appearance in front of a judge should be only for protocol unless the Haitian citizen can prove their legality in DR the order of deportation should be issued immediately and carried out without hesitation.
All in all I consider your post a good beginning and I don't think most of the Dominicans in this forum would oppose
Add a 10th point and let's make this the end all to all these debates. whenever someone wants to know what Dominicans think, give them-and that goes for all of us-THE LIST. If some one comes up with a better idea, so be it, we're include or revise our 10 Point Plan.
here we go again with the cheap labor card
some of this dudes sound like a broken record with the same song day after day after day.
is there any other contribution made by haitians other than cheap labor.
how about paying taxes or NOT cutting trees or maybe not begging so much on the streets of santo domingo, i haven't see a dominican beggar in years, i mean, even begging is been affected by the swarm.
You have seen the results of LIE-onel Fernandez foreign excursions then!
talking about haitian beggars!!
Cuco,stop looking in the mirror..
Anyway piti I will let you have the last bark ...have fun